RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:51 pm

LONG MESSAGE....BUT PLEASE READ COS I REALLY NEED HELP. Thankyou.

I am a new member, and I was wondering if anyone can help me.
I used to have rats when I was younger and straight from the start they were all extremely tame (especially my first one). I still miss them dearly. I had one, then another the day after for company and then a little while after that another one.

Now I am 21, and my fiance and I decided we would like to have two baby female rats. I was delighted as I'd wanted rats again ever since my others died about 10years ago. Seriously, I know it sounds stupid, but it was my lifes dream, cos my others were so lovely and always awake in the day asking to come out.

So we got two baby females from the same place as I got mine from all those years ago (pet at home) and bought them a huge cage big enough for four rats that cost 90quid. They are olny four weeks old and seemed fine in the shop.

Of course we didnt expect them to be all over us straight away. We left them to settle for a few hours, then introduced ourselves. Its been about three days now, and my rat Candy is a little better...she will hop out the cage sometimes and if I manage to get her she will crawl over me.

My boyfriend Steve's rat Mia, made progress by coming out the cage cautiously at first and grabbing food to eat in her cage. Then she would hop out no problem, grab the food from her dish and run back, then come back and grab more (making a stash-which I didnt think rats did). She also started making a nest as soon as she was in the cage for the first time.

Im not too sure what we should do with her now though, cos she has been out on Steve when he managed to get her by scooping her up from behind. She sat on his shoulder too scared to move, but seemed to enjoy a little bit of a stroke on her paw and neck. Then later she licked Steve's hand in the cage ( one of my rats in the past did that alot when she content on my lap).
He was really pleased, but then when he tried that later she started to bite him a few times really hard. She keeps drawing blood. Then she jumped on him and really had a go. We thought she was making progress. So now Steves abit downhearted. Its his first proper pet and he was so excited. We are being patient and doing things gradually by the book.

Mine tries to bite somtimes too but is usually ok when she's out. She does run away alot though and doesnt like being picked up much.
We always try to blow on them to stop them biting and aslo from chasing and pouncing on each other and then grooming for ages cos I heard this is saying to the other rat I'm boss.
Obviously its early days and theyre still young, but we are worried that if something isnt done soon they will never be tame enough to handle whenever and to smooth on our laps etc. We also want to train them to do tricks (simple ones we've looked up in a rat care and health book)

Also, we have bought rat muesli for them from the same pet store they were bought in, and they love it. But it says on the packet the muesli doesnt contain seeds...yet it does and they are eating it. Ive read seeds contain alot of protein, and although young rats need all they can eat and more protein that adults they cant have too much.
Seeing as they are a month old now, shall we restrict them to how much food they can have?
I've read they can have banana, spinich, wholemeal bread (sometimes dipped in olive oil), carrots, cornflakes, soup, rice, rolled oats, cooked chicken in small moderations and cooked pasta. Can they really have all these? What kind of soup, and what are rolled oats? Like porridge before you add the milk? Wont carrots stain their fur?

Alot of books and sites say different things like...only give them grated carrot not chunks, and only over-riped banana, and they cant have any nuts...but the book and pet store says they can have most nuts, most fruit and veg, table scraps and sandwich. The pet store owner wasnt really specific enough and he also said the rat muesli we got them is fine and the seeds wont hurt them.
Im worried they will be bored with their food and we dont know what they can and cant have and whats good for them and how much a day etc. Especially with them being so young. Theyve only had some spinich on top of their normal diet and they loved that. I want to know what type of sandwich can they have cos isnt butter bad for them? I know they have to be kept on a low fat, low protein and high fibre diet.

Will the muesli keep their teeth down and give them enough minerals etc till I can afford a mineral block and a wooden chew toy?

I've heard they need animal protein, so is that any different from the protein we have? I cant find any thorough information on their diet....just stuff on what ppl feed their rats (that could be healthy or really bad for all I know)

One more thing is, do we just clean their cage and everything in it with warm soapy water? I know pet shops sell special disinfectants for small animals, but my parents never used any when I had rats when I was little and they were fine.

So I thought this site might be able to help me with all the rat lovers who gather here. A forum dedicated to rats is great! I was hoping to find one, but didnt think I would cos so many ppl still hate rats and its a shame.

So I hope everyone here is patient and nice, cos I do write long entries (not usually this long-so dont worry lol). I dont want to anger anyone, its just I want so much to get along with these cuties.

Thankyou....we especially need taming advice.

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:20 pm

Hey!
I've had a biter, Bear, Man was she scary when I got her! She never got me though, just bared her teeth and tried ot get ot me.I jsut moved slowly around her, coaxed her with treats, and when she did get ahold of me (Never broke the skin) I would make a "EEEPP!" noise, to let her know it hurt. She's the sweetest thing now.
Green Banannas carry something that is bad for rats, but rip ones are great. They Have teeth so they can bite into a carrot haha. Nut / seeds are Very Fatty so limit those.
What food do you have these girls eating?

Warm soapy water is good, once a week, change the bedding every 2-3 days.
My girls chew alot, but they still have ot be taken for the vet to get their teeth clipped.

Enjoy your new Ratties, and Welcome to the forum!
pics

I free feed my rats, they have fresh food/water everyday, all the time.
They get fresh veggies everyother day / everyday.
Rats do not understand the blowing I dont think.

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:21 pm

Welcome to RP, and hopefully I can help - I'm another UK member myself.

First off - give them time. 3 days is nowhere near enough time for them to adjust and get used to you. The biting is because they are scared and it will stop in time if you handle them gently. If you do a search on the forums, you will find lots of threads about scared, biting and nervous rats, as well as trust training and forced socialisation. Right now I'd go with the first. Put your hands at the door of the cage, talk softly, keep things quiet around them (so no loud TV, music or yelling etc). Don't grab at them, let them wander over to explore you.

You can also - if you have a room with tight fitting doors, or a bed you can put their cage on - set the cage down, open the doors and then ignore it - sit with them, reading or watching TV (not too loud) and just let them come out and explore. They may take a while, and may keep retreating at first, but over time they will come out and start exploring and climbing over you. You can also bribe them with food. Don't give up on them and make sure that you are in an area that is safe for them and doesn't have places to hide - such as a hallway with doors closed, a bathroom with no nooks and crannies or (my favourite) on the bed.

Food wise - the rat muesli alone isn't good enough. The rat nuggets are a bit better, but you may want to look into a home mixed diet - http://www.shunamiterats.co.uk/diet.html is designed for UK people and you can use the P@H muesli and/or nuggets as part of that.

Feed them around 20% fresh foods - fruits, veg, cooked meat and fish, bread, eggs, noodles, rice, table scraps etc. Pretty much most things. They're omnivorous like us, and have very similar requirements to us diet wise - if something is ok for you and ok for a toddler, chances are it's ok for a rat. Check the foods to feed with caution list under this link: http://www.ratpalace.com/index.php?name=Sections&req=listarticles&secid=13 and also the sticky on nutrition has further details on things to avoid. But try to give them something fresh (though in the case of veg, frozen is probably better in most cases nutritionally, and even tinned is ok as long as it has no added salt, sugar etc) every day to make up about 1/5th of their diet. Mine usually just have a bit of whatever I've had.

Don't blow on them to stop them chasing each other - they're playing and it's perfectly normal in rats, especially little ones. Wrestling is normal - it's play, it's setting the place in the cage and who is boss (which they have to do - it's normal and harmless unless it gets to the point where someone is being bullied or blood is being drawn) and little girls will chase, wrestle and mount each other when one of them is in heat - so trying to stop that behaviour will likely fail. It's possible that it may make them nervous and anxious if you are consistantly reprimanding them.

They should keep their teeth down with bruxing, chewing their food (particularly if you go with nuggets and hard things like uncooked pasta) and so on - but you can try offering them wood chews. They may like them, or they may ignore them, but it won't hurt if you get the petsafe ones.

Cleaning - soap and water, or a mild disinfectant or bleach solution will do - just be sure to rinse very thoroughly and make sure there's no residue left. Bedding wise, I'd recommend Biocatolet cat litter - the paper one. It's better than most of the other alternatives you'll find in P@H and less dusty than Carefresh - you don't want to be using wood based products as they are pine based (even though P@H keeps them on either woodshavings or pine cat litter pellets Yuck

)

All in all - just give them some time. They're young, scared and not quite sure what to do with themselves just yet. Things will settle down, and they will turn into kissy sweethearts, I'm sure - just give it time and patience, especially with the trust training, and you should see an improvement in couple of weeks for sure.

Edit: Things I missed first time round - they don't need a mineral block, especially if you're using something like the Shunamite diet. If you want to give them uncooked porridge oats, then just make sure it's the proper ones not something like reddy brek or other instant oatmeal stuff - though they do love that made up. wink

They certainly don't need a salt lick - as with humans, salt intake (along with fat, sugar and additives) should be kept to a minimum. The blowing will distract them if they are arguing, as would spraying them with a little water from a clean spray bottle - but they will either ignore it or get stressed if it's done all the time (as will any animal).

For those that are interested, the rat food that the original poster mentioned is a rat food made by Pets At Home - called Rat Muesli. It's a seed and grain mix basically but reasonably good as they go. They also make Rat Nuggets which are pretty much as close as we get in the UK to lab blocks - they're better as part of a mix (instead of dog kibble in Suebee's for example) but are ok as long as they're supplimented with other things.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Last edited by LittleWillow on Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:30 pm

you did better then me LittleWillow Grats!
and lots morei nformation!

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:37 pm

Well thanks - it helps being from the UK (and so recognising the products and store she mentions) being able to recommend easy to get hold of UK products... and I know what baby girls can be like - little maniacs. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:44 pm

eah i've got 3 wee ladies, and 2 old lazy ones. lol what a combo. :wink:

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:55 pm

They are good girls really.
I will definalty get some rat nuggets and something for them to chew on.
Until then, I will take somr of the seeds out their muesli and only leave a few in...and give them some fresh veggies etc.
I will use up the rest of their bedding...which is the pellet litter stuff. Then they can have something else. Its almost all gone anyway.
Will clean them out tonight cos they seem abit stinky. They havnt quite established a toilet corner yet.
They kept us awake the first night and last night. Noisy things!
But theyre cute.

Ive read you cant pick them up by the tail (base) at all nomatter the age...but the pet shop owner did. Is it ok while theyre young and if so how long before you have to stop? Cos obviously you cant when theyre bigger as they are too heavy.

I think the bananas we have are mostly yellow....maybe a couple of faint black spots...they should be ok shouldnt they? And maybe the odd cornflake as a treat at playtime to entice them out of the cage?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:56 pm

Hi.. Well welcome to the site.. I've only been using it for a couple of weeks and everyone is lovely and has really good advice. Just out of interest, what pets at home store did you get them from? I was told by my local store that it was company policy not to sell females.. although they did then sell me a female and her brother as a pair of males Shocked

Anyhow.. Persevere with the handling. Squeaking works to help prevent them biting as it is the response they would get from a fellow rat if they bit them. I have a pair of horrid rats, they are nasty Evil or Very Mad

, and they always were. However if I'd had them when I had more experience (like now) I may have been able to prevent some of their nastiness. They have always bitten on any kind of touch, and always hid from humans if they were out of the cage. Like I said, I was nervous, and wanted to give them room. Probably the worst thing I could have done as they had a huge cage, each other, and they hadn't been handled. They therefore never got to know me as something/ one nice. I was never aggressive with them, I used to blow on them to stop them from biting me, but to be honest it just didn't work. And because I'd been bitten to the bone so many times, I was scared. I stopped trying.. And now I fight every time to clean the cage, wearing welding gloves so they don't pounce on me. I have tried as much as I can, and think I will have to have them rehomed with someone who has more experience at taming them.

Since then, I have denied any new rats the privacy of their cage for the first few days. I don't leave them for a couple of days to get acquainted with their cage, I handle them as much as possible (so long as they come out and make the first move.. ). I don't give them the opportunity to not be used to me. And if they bite me, I squeak.. It seems to work. Also, while they're very young, and ok to be in a smaller cage, I keep them in there for the first few days, so they don't get so used to having a million places to hide in and not needing to come out and play. Although this seems mean, it means that they HAVE to get to know me. They can go back into their cage at any time, but they also need to come out to stretch. Hero and Warrior are both nibblers. Hero more so, mainly because she's just given birth and is more protective, (I also think that she thinks my little finger is one of her babies as she keeps trying to drag it in the nest wtf

) she is also opportunistic and thinks that I have a lot of food on me all the time! Warrior just likes to nibble, make sure it's me and then just lick me.. Rolling Eyes

Be patient, is there any way you can limit the size of their cage at all, so they still have room to do stuff, but so that the idea of coming out is appealling? Rub your hands in their litter, make you smell of them. If they let you stroke them and play nicely, reward them. If they bite you, squeak, say "no" and put them back. Get them back out a few minutes later, and try again. If they still do it, squeak again, and say no again, and put them back in the cage. Leave them for longer before you get them back out. Most rats respond wonderfully to bribery, but from experience I would say it is as important that they are reprimanded (gently) for being bad, as it is that they are rewarded for being good.

The main thing is to be gentle.. let them come to you. I read a book years ago about wild rats and I'm guessing it's the same for pet ones.. They are cainophobic.. or afraid of all new things. They jump easily, and if you frighten them with your comparatively HUGE hands, they are likely to be scared (especially as they don't yet know you..) and you have a pretty big target area there for them to sink there HUGE teeth into.. One thing I have learned from experience is that holding your palms flat while they're on your lap and letting them smell.. (keep your fingers tight-ish together) and they can't bite you so well.. If you're putting your hand in the cage, make a fist - it's much harder for them to bite hard bulky parts of you than it is for them to nibble the squishy bits.

I find a bath tub realllllly helpful.. I can go and sit in it, and let the rat crawl all over me, and they can pee and poo and it doesn't matter. They get to know you and it's a safe environment. Bear in mind that a lot of rats hate baths, and won't want to be put down in it (mine poooooo for england and jump at anything they see as a vague lifesaving device - namely my arm).. I think it's the coldness off the enamel/ plastic.

With regards to chewing, a piece of wood is really good (as Little Willow said, make sure it's rat friendly). I also have a rock in my cages for them to climb on and keep their nails down.. Food wise, I use the P@H nuggets with the muesli, I have the dual cat dishes in each cage, dry mix in one side, and fresh stuff in the other.. i.e boiled potatoes, rice, pasta, tuna, some veg, if i'm eating healthily and haven't coated my food in salt already, they get some of that.. It needs to be balanced and varied. I mixed some horrible looking stuff in a pan, and froze it, and all my rats eat it like there's no tomorrow. It's all good for them and they enjoy it..

For bedding, I have recently discovered Hemcore, it's in shavings, but made from hemp stalks. All of them seem to be fine on it. A bonus is that it is about the same size as a huge bag of shavings and it costs the same. I also put some carefresh in with them and some paper towels for them to shred. Shredded paper is pretty good, and they all love weaving it into nests. Your local chemist is a good bet as they probably have a ton of prescriptions shred up in a big black bag. If you ask them, they'll probably give you some.

Hope that helps! Mr. Green

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:06 pm

Never never EVER pick up a rat by the tail. The pet store owner needs a boot in the backside for that. It's never safe to pick them up that way - even at the base, they're too heavy and it can lead to degloving of the tail (and then losing the part of the tail that has been damaged). They will respond best, during picking up, if you put your hands either side of them, slide them underneath their body and scoop them up gently.

Yellow bananas are fine - as long as they're not too underripe to eat, or so overripe they're going bad, then they're ok.

And I'd second shredded paper - tissue, kitchen paper, etc - it all makes nice nests. Mine even like a couple of sheets of newspaper to shred but it is kind of noisy. wink

Cornflakes are ok as a treat, but they do tend to be high in salt and sugar - it's shocking sometimes when you check the ingredients! Rice crispies aren't much better. Cheerios (the non-honeynut ones) make nice treats though and are firm favourites. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:23 pm

Thankyou...as soon as they run out of that floor bedding we will give them some new stuff, and nuggets too to mix with the muesli.
Do you think all pet shops sell the stuff we need? Cos theres a small pet shop in town that sell really cute rats..so they must jabe sometjing good.

We will try them on a few new foods. We have noodles alot, so they can have some of that. Dry macaroni is ok, and cooked noodles without sauces, salt etc? What about those honey coated seed sticks parrots have? Cos thats got alot of seeds and is very sweet. Leave one in for half a day every few days?

They have shredded paper as bedding and they like to sleep in a tea towel. Candy sleeps in the tube leading up to the top platform alot.

How much mixed fruit and veg in a bowl? Cos we dont want to give them toilet or stomach problems. Ive read certain foods prolong longetivity and decrease the chances of tumors and other infections etc.

We got them from pets at home in Maesglas, Newport , South Wales. They were seperated from the males but a sign said they cannot guarantee the sex of the rats. They look like females...I know how to look at them, and they both look the same. And, theres no extra bits down there either.
I wont give them many cornflakes or sweet things like that.
We cant give them tissue paper cos mine eats it

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:33 pm

We're near swansea.. thats where i got mine from. You can get special rat honey and seed sticks. I doubt there's much difference between them tho. If you're ever near Neath, Zoah's Ark is excellent for all pet stuff, and the staff REALLY know their stuff.. But yes. all pet shops will have similar stuff. eBay is really good for cheap Chubes (they're normally about £7 in shops, you can get them for around £3 on eBay), and other stuff. Most things, you can make.. a polar fleece blanket from ikea (about £3) and sew it up to make some cool hammocks and cosy bits for them.. mine generally drag their's into their nest and chew it whilst it keeps them warm :s .. Another note about pet shops, shop around. eBay (again) has some great pet based 'shops' which can work out a lot cheaper. Some smaller independent shops are more expensive as they dont have the customer base, but they also generally have more of a variety and interesting bits that big stores don't..

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:48 pm

Thanks.

I will bear that in mind.
How do I get a picture on my posts?

One of the links I was given said they can't have dried fruit, but I was told they can.
I hope cos they came from a pet shop they will be tame...the rats I had years ago came from there and they were great from day one...and i mean proper lap rats, buxing and licking and everything and asking to come out. I know they are all different.

We are going to have chicken today. Is it ok to feed them that in little bits as long as its got no salts, sauces etc? And obviously it will be well cooked. In moderation the pet store said.

Any games we can play with the rats before they get to know us to make them happy and want to come out?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:07 pm

Moderation is the key - they can usually have most things but, like humans, they prefer junk food if given the choice - though they tend to be keen on fruits and veg as well (or at least some of them) so that's better than most kids. wink

If you're making big changes to their diet, then do it gradually, over a few days and watch to make sure they don't get diarrhoea... introducing a lot of veg at once might do that particularly, but as long as you increase the amount of fresh stuff they eat over a few days, then they should be fine. Start off with maybe a teaspoonful, no more, and then increase it over the next few days.

They can have some sauces, as long as - again - it's moderated. A little fat, salt etc won't hurt them, but you don't want them to have too much - they don't need it, but they're not going to get sick if you occasionally give them some ribs with a little barbecue sauce on, for example. The main thing to watch for is spicy things - that will make a stinky butt. You might find if they have meat that their poop is a little more smelly afterwards, but I've not honestly noticed it.

Just because they're from the pet shop, doesn't mean they won't tame up and be very loving - although they tend to be better socialised from good breeders, with time most pet store rats will be perfectly loving and friendly.

Dried fruit - don't give them too much, because it's very sugary (naturally) and some of the larger fruits (like apricots) can be very sticky - that can be a potential choking risk, but if you tear or cut them up into small pieces with scissors or a knife, then they should be ok. Pets At Home sell some dried fruit and dried veg mixes, designed for rabbits and so on, but you can use those in their dry mix for a little variety too.

I use a homemade mix myself - it's dried pasta, puffed grains (the Kashi cereal you can get in supermarkets - 7 different grains), soynuts, a small number of sunflower seeds and pumpkin seeds, and the rat nuggets, dried fruit and/or veg, and a couple of other cereals (vitamin enriched ones, often with freeze dried berries in). That gets free fed to them, and fresh foods given on top of that. It doesn't take much to make it up, and they seem to love it.

Most pet stores will have things you need - and if you go with paper cat litters for the cage you can get those in supermarkets (biocatolet is in most places, and Bob Martins might only be an Asda product). Farm stores often have other bedding/litter things that you can try like cardboard bedding designed for stables.

Treatwise - you can use hamster or rabbit treats - they have the hanging popped treat bars which are probably a little more appropriate than the seed ones for budgies and parrots. You can also go for things like Chick and Chip sticks, Cheese Wedges, yoghurt or chocolate drops, etc. Or you can get healthy yoggie treats in the form of yoghurt coated banana chips (absolutely adored in my house) or yoghurt coated raisins from any human store.

http://www.ratpalace.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10713 will help you with posting images.

Playing wise - I think the main thing is to talk to them lots, let them sniff you - my flatmate always plays the "In and out" game with his rats, particularly the girls. He sticks his hand, flat, palm up, at the door of the cage and lets them run out onto his hand, into the cage again, back out again - eventually they run up his arm, around his neck, into his shirt, down his arm again, under his hair etc. If you do get them out, then try to keep them on you (not necessarily being held by you, but try to keep them touching you) for 20 minutes - generally, they will have calmed down and their immediate fight-or-flight mechanism will have worn off at least temporarily. This is more a "forced socialisation" method, but if you have them run onto you, or you do scoop them up, then it's worth keeping them on you for that time even if you don't specifically go the forced socialisation route. If you give food at the cage door, go with something like babyfood on a spoon, or yoghurt - something they can't grab and run away.

Also, if you find that they turn their noses up at things you offer them, don't be downhearted. They can't vomit, so they tend to be wary about new foods - they take a tiny nibble, wait a while to see if it makes them ill - only if they're still fine after a couple of days or so will they consider eating it again. So if they don't like something, try it again later - if they still turn their nose up a few days on, then leave it a couple of weeks or a month and perhaps try again - like children, they can be a bit fickle, and sometimes it takes several tries before they decide they like certain foods - and of course, sometimes they simply don't like them, full stop.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Last edited by LittleWillow on Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:15 pm

Focus DIY stores sometimes have a pet section.. I found Bob Martins in there the other day, but it was for exactly the same amount as carefresh and cost the same.. so i went with the one specifically for little mites.. Also, I think it's Snowflake cat litter also states that it is safe for small animals.. So that might be one to try as well..

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:26 pm

Aye - as long as it says on it that it's 100% paper (rather than wood or only partially paper) then it's fine to use. I must say that I always found the Biocatolet cheaper - bigger bags, more absorbant, better smell control - Carefresh proved expensive, the dust upset the sneezers and we had our first bout of mites from (as far as we could tell) a contaminated package of the stuff - none of which is a good reason to say it's evil (which I'm not) but as with all things, the litter issue is very much a personal choice - some people swear on paper cat litters. Others swear on Carefresh. Some people love reusable cloth and others do fine with newspaper (my flatmate uses newspaper and tissue because his sneezy rat sneezes on anything - Carefresh was the worst, and even the paper cat litters seem to irritate him (possibly more to do with the fact that the litter doesn't get changed daily, while the newspaper does).

I think ultimately as long as it's not harmful (no sawdust, no pine/cedar/softwood products (shavings or pellets), no clumping/clay/silica cat litters etc) and kept clean, then it really comes down to what suits everyone - human and ratty - best.

Many garden centres also have a pet area - We had a big garden centre near where I used to live, and they had stuff that sadly I can't even get at P@H - Ferretvite vitamin paste. I order that online now because P@H only carries the Ferretone water vitamins and that really doesn't work for hiding meds and boosting appetite.

Edit: Snowflake cat litter is - sadly - softwood shavings from the timber industry, compressed into pellets. It won't be appropriate - it probably disintegrates into sawdust when wet (or all the other similar products I've seen do) and it also says it still has a strong pine scent in some of the reviews I've seen... so I'd probably say that one's not worth trying.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:33 pm

we are gonna try and see if theyll come out tonight when they wake up. we'll block of all areas, put the cage on the bed, and lie in front of it watching them and tlking to them etc, with some chicken outside the cage door. We are cooking it now, only tiny cut up bits and its being cooked in toasted sesame oil, again only a tiny bit.

We hope they like it and it will make them willing to come out.
Im not sure what we have in at the moment, but can they have muller yougherts? obviously not a whole tub lol...are there any youghurt alternatives that are usually kept in the house? Such as custard made up from the powdered stuff? We have some of that thats been in the fridge for a day or two.
we may only have raisens...so a couple of those each tonight and some dried uncooked pasta should be ok without cutting it up shouldnt it?

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:43 pm

Yup - all of those things are fine.

Any yoghurt is fine - some people use soy yoghut (because of the reported health benefits of soy and because occasionally, a rat might find that dairy products upset their tummy but on the whole, rats don't have a problem with dairy intolerance) but normal yoghurt is fine too. Custard will also be ok - again, if it's got a lot of sugar in, not too much but a little is fine for treats and bribery and corruption. The chicken sounds fine - usually I just cook it whole and cut it up, but either way is fine.

If you have some cooked chicken bones from a roast, they'll love those as an odd treat too - and also they're good for keeping teeth trimmed. And a few raisins and some uncooked pasta will be nice additions too.

Regarding constants in the house.... the things I always make sure I have in are instant oatmeal (like Reddy Brek) and a packet of dried baby foods - they're good for treats (though limited in adults), growing rats, ill or convalescing rats, hiding medicines, soothing upsets and spoiling them rotten. It's not something that everyone has, but I've had bad luck with poorly rats, so I have rather a collection of things like that. You can also get some powdered soy formula or puppy milk (like lactol) which keeps well, and again - is useful for helping boost up poorly or underweight rats. Again, not vital, but one of those "useful to have around" things in case of emergencies.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:48 pm

thank you for correcting that one.. i havent tried it, but nearly did as it said it was perfect for them on the bag!! yes, the pets at home wood based litter was recommended to me by P@H.. it broke down into sawdust when it got wet too.. It was handy for seeing when it was wet etc, but not great for the sneezing..

You can give them natural yoghurt or soy yoghurt.. mine love the normal natural yoghurts you can buy at a supermarket. *DON'T* give them custard.. I thought it would be a nice treat for them all on evening as I was having some.. the next day (and for a few after) they all had yellow diarrohea.. not a nice experience for any of us. I don't know if that is a general rule.. but I wouldn't recommend it.. I think it's because it's so heavily sugar based. At the moment, I am giving my doe some redy brek soaked in lactol (puppie milk) to help her with her nursing and keeping her energies up.. i sprinkle a teeny bit of sugar in it, and mix some organic bran muesli with raisins in.. and she loves it.. I'll probably still give it to her when she stops nursing, but use water instead of lactol. Her pooh stinks tho.. not sure what's making her do that !! Sad

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:01 am

	Quote:
	DON'T* give them custard.. I thought it would be a nice treat for them all on evening as I was having some.. the next day (and for a few after) they all had yellow diarrohea.. not a nice experience for any of us.

I'm eminded of a similar story of a rat that had pumpkin soup that also came out looking the same as it was when it went in (even if it didn't smell that way!). Sometimes, foods can dye their poo very funny colours - green, red, black even blue... Shocked

I don't think it's a definitive reaction - my guys have had the odd bit of custard without problems - but it could be, as you said, the high sugar or certain sweeteners (some, particularly fructose and xylitol, can cause diarrhoea in humans too), or perhaps one of the additives, colours or something.

I'd imagine its the extra protein making her poo smell stronger - from the lactol particularly. Also, as she has more sugar, that tends to make the stomach bacteria ferment more, and make stronger smells. You might also want to look in the petshops for EMP - a product for weaning and handraising birds. It's egg based, and great for nursing moms and weaning infant ratties, as well as in illness etc.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Last edited by LittleWillow on Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:09 am; edited 1 time in total

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:05 am

she's doing so well.. i'm mega proud of her!! Mr. Green

they're in there squeaking away at the mo.. they're all fat and pink and puppy like!! hehe! Mr. Green

cool. well so long as it's nothing really bad!! haha! my boyfriend's scared of holding her cos all she does is poo at the moment!! i think it's just cos she wants to sit on her mum!! that's what i tell myself anyway! Mr. Green

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:11 am

Aye, as long as it's fully formed and normal texture and colour (not greeny or runny or mucusy or bloody etc) then it's probably nothing to worry about - she will be eating like crazy now (more than when she was pregnant even) and drinking like mad, so she will seem to have turned into even more of a poo machine (and youngsters are poo machines at the best of times anyway!).

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:15 am

yeah.. that was something that occurred to me.. sorry for posting this in this thread, but i'm confused.. there doesn't seem to be any pinkie's poo.. will she have eaten it or carried it out of the nest? she's lying on her shelf at the minute.. i think they think she's a milking machine! but she's not drinking very much.. although I am giving her a lot of fluid based foods. ie redy brek, milk soaked bread..

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:24 am

@pinkie poo. Yeah, she would have eaten it. Very young babies can't go on their own, so the mother will lick their bellies/genitals to stimulate them to go, and she'll usually eat what comes out. Just their way of keeping the nest clean.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:26 am

oh and also, www.photobucket.com is a good place to use as a site for photos. its unbelievably easy.. You will need a resizer, if you have windows xp you can go to http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx and download the photo resizer.. All you have to do then is right click on your photos, resize photos, and you can say how big you want them in the custom option. I think the biggest allowed on here is 600 x 600, but to be honest, smaller is kinda better. I'd probably say 400 x 250 or something.. Just play, and then upload them to photopucket.. It's really easy. I was daunted at first.

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Last edited by bored_bel on Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:29 am; edited 2 times in total

Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:27 am

	Ratsicles wrote:
	@pinkie poo. Yeah, she would have eaten it. Very young babies can't go on their own, so the mother will lick their bellies/genitals to stimulate them to go, and she'll usually eat what comes out. Just their way of keeping the nest clean.

wooo.. i never realised they were such charming creatures!! hehe!

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green