RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:27 pm

Hi,

My husband and I have been making a new cage for my Haggis, We're almost done, and its going to be a mansion compare to what she's been in.

I was just wondering, do I need to "introduce" her to her new home gradually, or is it ok just to put her in it when its all set up?

She's still a little timid & insecure and after play time scrambles to get back into her present cage. Her favorite nesting box will go into the new cage, and some of her old toys and food dish. Should I take some of the old bedding and put it in there too for familiar smells?

Should I put her in it for a little while each day and let her go back to her old cage at night until she gets adjusted or just put her in the new cage and leave it at that?

Also, I plan to get her a cage mate as soon as I fine a suitable one for her.
What does any one suggest about it - should I let Haggis get use to the new cage at first and THEN introduce a new friend, or give them a new cage at the same time?

I don't have a new rattie yet. The pet stores here have either male or way older rats, and I really would prefer a young socialized rat from a reputable breeder to help Haggy with her timidness, but I plan on getting one as soon as possible.

Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:58 pm

Noooo... don't put her in it until she has her new cagemate. Rats are/can be VERY territorial, and if you put your current rat in first, and then the new one a few days later, she could be very seriously attacked by your current rat.

Wait until you have your new rat, and then introduce them somewhere neither rat has been before, like the empty bathtub. As long as there's no fighting, they should be ok together.

Don't put ANY of her old stuff in the new cage with the new rat. If you have to, make sure you clean it very very well, so Haggis can't identify it as hers.

Seriously rats mark their territory all the time, and if a new rat comes along, their first response is to fight this rat and drive them away from their own territory. BUT, if they are in neutral ground, then they have the chance to make and become friends.

Good luck. There should be a link on the left on rat introductions. Read this. But I do find as long as I'm putting both rats into a brand new cage, they get on ok, apart from the odd few scuffles once they realise they're stuck with each other.

Also, have you considered getting two new baby girls, instead of just one? I'm worried if Haggis has been on her own for a long time, she may pick on one baby unduely. If there's two then she can pick on each one alternately.

Plus when Haggis goes, you're not back to one timid rat again. If I remember, you said Haggis was about 6 months old? A six week old rat is going to want to jump about and play rough and tumble, and this may wind up Haggis after a while, and she may take it out on the newbie. If the newbie has a friend her own age, it'll be better for all of them.

Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:00 am

Thanks for the sound advice (especially about the 2nd baby)- its pretty much what I thought (I just really wanted to put her in the new cage sooooo bad LOL

)

I got her when she was about 5-6 weeks and the present cage was a good size for her then but now....

I guess thats just about the best reason to get my husband to agree to 2 more ratties, especially after all that hard work (& blood) he put into making the cage Mr. Green

The cage we're making is 12"Dx21"Wx28"H, 4 stories high, with the top one being a full floor and 2 half shelves. Is this enough room for 3 ratties?
Even 'tho Haggis is 6 mos. old, she's still pretty small (not verry squishy at all Sad

I think she was the runt)

Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:54 pm

Sorry, according to this cage calculator, you can only fit two rats in it:

http://www.fancy-rats.co.uk/information/habitat/cagecalculator/

I'm trying to work out your measurements. Is each floor only 7 inches apart then? As it states on the cage calculator page, each rat should have two cubic foot of space per rat. So would that give them more floor space, and stretch the limit of the cage a bit more? Ideas anyone?

Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:28 pm

I don't think my measurements were totally accurate, Labrat.
As I'm without a digital camera at the moment, I drew a sketch with measurements at the various levels. Hopefully this will be more helpful.

We should be able to build additions to the cage, too, in the future.
Right now, the base is one of those RubberMaid tubs thats 20" long, 12"wide and 5" deep. I can always get a bigger one and add on from there.

Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:49 pm

Oh cool. It'd be so great if you could get two baby rats. But they do need to have space to be able to run and play. But as long as you're prepared to extend the cage if necessary, then that's fab. You have the cage calculator now, so that's the main thing. At least you know what to aim for now!

How big is Haggis? Do you know her weight? My smallest rat is 250g (female) and my big females have gone up to over 500g, with my boys going over 700g, so that gives you a bit of an idea of size. Also never believe petshops. The average cage sold as a rat cage is suitable for a hamster, rats do well in indoor rabbit cages and ferret cages, etc. Makes you wonder what to keep a ferret or rabbit in really... Anyway just to say, don't necessarily expect your two new potential additions to be as small as Haggis.

Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:46 am

I don't have anything to weigh her with, but she let me use a measuring tape on her. She's 6 inches long from nose to base of tail. Her tail is 7 1/2 inches long, and around the biggest part of her tummy she's 6-7 inches wide.

I guess I'm going to try to get 2 babies to keep her company. When Haggis goes to the Rainbow Bridge Sad

I'll at least have the other 2 girls to keep each other company and not have to go through the reintroduction thing again.

When they start to really grow, then we can add to the cage. I've already got some ideas, but haven't quite mentioned to my husband yet as he thinks I'm only getting one more rattie Mr. Green

(He hasn't heard of GMR syndrome) Plus, they'll get as much of outside time as I'm able to.

My only problem now is finding some babies to adopt! The area I live in does't have a great pet selection.

Thanks for the calculator-I've been trying to find one!

Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:43 am

My concern is with the ramps and tubes as drawn. A geriatric rat may well have trouble with what looks like very steep inclines there. The tube looks to be well over a foot long and almost vertical but for a slight curve, and the ramps/ladders look rather steep as well. Also, the ramps would do better nestled to the sides of the cage, so a geriatric rat can lean on the cage sides and possibly use the bar wires to pull herself up as she goes, or just to steady herself as she climbs.

Not meaning to put down all your hard work, as it could well be built somewhat differently than drawn.

Here's some advice, though, from years of having remodeled and built from scratch many cages for my rats and others people's (some of which I see you've done already):

Always make sure that a cage is expandable AND retractable for future geriatrics. You may at some point end up with a very old rat or two and have to close off top levels to prevent them from climbing too much.

Always try to make sure your cage has a fairly large floor base in measurements. Personally, the smallest base I would go is either (approx) 18 X 30 or 24 X 24, perferably larger. Reason for this is if/when you have to close off top levels, there is still plenty of base floor space left for even the most tottery rat to loll about in.

For ramps, ladders, tubes, and other climbing accessories, try to build them round the inside perimeter, preferably with landings, and make sure they are at least 5 or more inches wide and securely attached to the cage sides. If you build them with low inclines and go round and round the perimeter, sort of like a square or rectangular open "spiral" staircase, that will keep them from being too steep.

With multi-level cages (which IMO all should be!

), try to set it up so that the levels are either staggered or full. This is so that when a rat falls from the top level, she will land on the next level rather than falling all the way to the bottom.

Try to make cage doors big enough to fit a rat igloo through (one door per level, of course), and while we're at it, big enough to fit your head and one shoulder and arm through as well ... the easier for them to pee on your head while you're trying to give them meds. wink

If you build a flip-top lid, I've just discovered (by happy accident while building the mouse cage) it's best to use a 3 - 5 inch single strip of cage wire across the entire back wall, then hinge from there. This keeps the cage much more stable while opening the hinged top. And if you do build a hinged top, it will be tons easier to clean the cage.

Always use a plastic bottom tray, never metal (which can corrode). Those cheap black boot trays, if you can get them in the right size, make excellent bottom trays in a pinch, if a bit shallow on the edges. It's not neccessary, but is fun for the critters to line the tray with a brown paper grocer's bag before putting in litter/bedding; they get to shred it when they dig in the litter.

ALWAYS, oh always have on hand many, many small black cable ties (zip ties). The smallest size, in BLACK. I'd thought it was my imagination that the black ones work better than white or any other color, but I've just found out it's true! I'd mentioned this to the hardware store guy the other day, and he said, "Oh, you're right. The black are UV-protected" (he showed me so on the label, if I'd ever cared to look, duh) "and that makes them much more flexible. But, usually only mechanics use the black ones. What are you using them for?" Forgiving him immediately for assuming I couldn't be a mechanic (esp since I'd no idea bout the UV!

), I told him my purpose, and his face lit up! "My boys have got rats! They're ---" and he went on to extoll the virtues of rats, until he saw me trying to hold in laughter, and I had to give him an abridged version of How I Got the TBM, and how I usually -- and will again -- have rats.

****************************
Oh, the above reminds me: Always have these cage-working tools on hand:
* Mud Gloves
* Two pair of wire cutters, one small, one larger
*Various sizes of needlenose pliers
* A pair of regular pliers
* Scissors
* Those cheap silvery lariat clip thingies you can get in a craft store
*** CABLE TIES (black, small) ***
* A metal file (for smoothing cut cage wire edges)
* Cage edging (can be had from Martin's cheaply, probably elsewhere as well) to cover the vertical sides and BOTTOM ONLY horizontal cut edges (bottom only cos if you cover the top edges, water and gunk will collect in there, eew)
* Twist ties (for temorarily holding/marking the spot you're trying to decide to put that shelf or ladder)
***** BEER! *****
****************************

Measure twice, cut once? Nah! With cage building, as you no doubt know by now, it's measure 50 times, mumble to oneself, consult an oracle, have a drink, make the first cut, and cry and bleed a lot. Mr. Green

ALWAYS have a water bottle on every level of the cage. That's not so much cage building per se, but it is a RULE, and you may have to take that into account when installing levels and such.

***Always build a cage with geriatric, disabled, and baby rats in mind, and try to accomodate every issue for each that you can possibly imagine while building. The needs of all three can be quite similar most times, and if you build/remodel with that in mind, you'll have the perfect cage for every rat that ever was.

***

Always build several levels that are detachable, for 2 reasons:
1. It will be MUCH easier to clean in pieces than dragging a 5-foot-tall cage into the tub (which I've done, *groan*)!
2. Detachable levels can be exchanged with one another and taken off and put back on according to the current needs.

That's all I can think of at the mo, though there's tons more I'm sure.

And rethinking, perhaps you could use that tube you've drawn to horizontally connect a smaller version of your cage to the one you have now, sort of an annex.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:05 pm

Go to www.guineapigcages.com for good ideas on how to make a pan, and you can get it in several colors too! www.coroplast.com is the company who makes coroplast and you can call them toll free to find a distributer near you, so you can get it really cheap.

Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:21 pm

Oooh! Thanks for that link pumpkin queen. I've been trying to figure out how to build a large pan to put 2 R695's side by side and I think that's the ticket! Thanks!

_________________
Christy
RP Admin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frodo, Zorro, Erzulie, Maeve, Clara, Molly & Emily

Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:58 pm

Glad you liked the link! I made our three piggie cages from designs on that site. Each one is 21 sq ft, so calling the company to get a distributer was a must. The sign shop guy here wanted $25 a sheet for it but by getting in contact with the manufacturer I met a distributer at one of his drop off sites (a sign shop) and got it for $11 a sheet. Each sheet is 8ftx4ft. If you wind up using some of it for a cage, post some pix!

Btw, your avatar rattie is adorable!

Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:02 am

	Quote:
	My concern is with the ramps and tubes as drawn. A geriatric rat may well have trouble with what looks like very steep inclines there. The tube looks to be well over a foot long and almost vertical but for a slight curve, and the ramps/ladders look rather steep as well.

Its the drawing LOL

the ramps aren't really that steep. The PVC pipe is a little over a foot long and while the drawing does make it seem almost vertical, its not. I'm still not happy with the angle yet and probably will tilt it more to angle the bottom upwards and add another shelf to sit it on and to add even more multilevels. Even by adding that 1 extra level it should help with the problem of a falling rat not going to the bottom of the cage but landing on the next shelf.

	Quote:
	Always make sure that a cage is expandable AND retractable for future geriatrics. You may at some point end up with a very old rat or two and have to close off top levels to prevent them from climbing too much.

Thanks for pointing that out, Kate. It was something I never even took into consideration and will difinately have alternative caging ready for Haggis when the time comes. By the way, about what age would a rat be considered geriatric?

TheRubberMaid bin base I have now isn't as large as I would like, but its as large as I have space for at the present. I, my husband & 12 year old share a dinky 4 room apartment with a cat, a dwarf bunny, 2 degus, 2 -10 gal. fish tanks, 12- 1 gal betta tanks and a 2-gal. goldfish in addition to my rat and way to much accumalated STUFF! We're house hunting, but are stuck her for the time being and I'm running out of room for large cages.

However, we've been discussing and sketching plans for adding to this cage we're making for when we have the room to. My husband thought of using the tube as a connector tube to annex another cage, too LOL

The doors are fairly large. Can't say as I will be able to stick arm, shoulder and head in at once Mr. Green

but I'll be able to get both hands in up to my elbows, at least

I thought about a totaly hinged top, but for the upright endpieces we used the ends of a rolling kitchen caddy and they're curved at the top. The hardware cloth wasn't being to cooperative in rolling with the barrell shaped top. The door at the top turned out to be about 1/3 of the whole top instead. Still big enough to get hands in and out of, as well as the PVC tube for cleaning or removal.

The best (and easiest!) thing we did in this process was to use zip ties. It is SUCH a help holding that hardware cloth in place while measuring and bending and folding..... Its like having about a hundred extra helping hands Mr. Green

	Quote:
	Measure twice, cut once? Nah! With cage building, as you no doubt know by now, it's measure 50 times, mumble to oneself, consult an oracle, have a drink, make the first cut, and cry and bleed a lot.

How true, how true!!!! ROTFLMAO My hands look like I've been climbing through 5 miles of barbwire fence! And the ends of my fingers have been filed down to stubs. My husband's mumbling got quite loud on several ocassions, I was worried that the neighbors were going to pound on the wall.

I planned on adding a couple more water bottles, one on each level.
The detachable shelves will be added in later as I ran out of money. We made shelves out of the hardware cloth, clipped them into place with J clips and then I put adhesive backed tile over the hardware cloth. The pattern looks like a stoned paved path. I thought the irregular raised shapes and kind of stone like feel would make it easier for little rattie feet to grip.

Thanks for all the info, Kate, I appreciate it. I'm going to keep a copy of it for future reference.

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:02 am

"By the way, about what age would a rat be considered geriatric?"

Oh, maybe 2 1/2, but I'm probably the wrong person to ask since my first rats lived to be 3 1/2 and didn't really act very geriatric til a little over 2 1/2; so I think it depends on the rat, as some age faster than others. Signs to watch for are the rat pulling itself along by the sides of the cage while going up ramps, a general slowing down in most activities, sleeping lots more, back leg degeneration, that sort of thing.

"I, my husband & 12 year old share a dinky 4 room apartment with a cat, a dwarf bunny, 2 degus, 2 -10 gal. fish tanks, 12- 1 gal betta tanks and a 2-gal. goldfish in addition to my rat and way to much accumalated STUFF! We're house hunting, but are stuck her for the time being and I'm running out of room for large cages."

Yikes! Mr. Green

Jeeze, I know what you mean about house hunting, too, we've been looking for 2 years now and no luck so far. Rolling Eyes

"We made shelves out of the hardware cloth, clipped them into place with J clips and then I put adhesive backed tile over the hardware cloth. The pattern looks like a stoned paved path. I thought the irregular raised shapes and kind of stone like feel would make it easier for little rattie feet to grip."

Great idea!

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:35 am

Hey all,

I put my inventive mind to work and came up with a really cool adaptor to connect 2 wire cages together safely and effectively!

I was going to buy the RUUD Martin's cage but I decided since I already have a really nice Martin's Knockoff, I would get the next model down and connect the 2.

1. Aquire wire cutters, and cut a 3 inch x 3 inch opening in the side of cage A and do the same to the side of cage B. Then get 4 Aluminum Docking plates for Aluminum flex pipe of the same measurements and the sandwhich each cage opening between 2 of the docking plates so the cut wires are safely hidden. Before sandwhiching the plates make sure there are 4 holes drilled in each plate for bolts so you can bolt them together for a sandwhich effect. After each cage has its docking plates installed, aquire a piece of aluminum flex pipe........3 inch diameter.......length dependant upon distance of cages. Just lock the pipe in place on each docking plate and PRESTO......cages connected!

Now obviously this will not work for all rats based on sizes and whatnot, but I will get some pics of this up once it is complete and assembled.

My folks think I should market it as a cage connector kit....

_________________
Matt & the Rats~~Rikku, Ayla, Miki, Yuffie, Teta, & Calamity!

Always~~ Luci & Elly Bear

Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:48 am

A-HA! I was just doing a similar thing for my mouse cages! Mr. Green

Only I can't find pipe small enough for mouses, so I bought some mouse pipe from one company and pre-made cage opening cover thingies from another, neither of which are supposed to be compatible, but heh, they don't know me and my perseverance!

Right now I have the Hagen cage and small wire cage connected by cutting a (mouse-sized) hole in the wire cage, edging the cut parts with door edging, butting one open end of the Hagen tube up against it, and securing that (cable ties!) with a collar made from the flexible plastic lid to a small butter tub in which I punched holes. *whew*

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:53 am

I"ve been pondering this for my two R695's forever now. I think I'm just going to cut squares in each side and connect them with a fat piece of PVC pipe (neighbor is a plumber so I have a huge supply at my fingertips). And then that way I still have 2 easily washable cages. It was that or combine them by stacking them, and I really prefer to keep them on the table so...the pondering continues.

_________________
Christy
RP Admin
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Frodo, Zorro, Erzulie, Maeve, Clara, Molly & Emily

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:55 am

But how would you keep the pvc stable? I'd be afraid it would fall out after a while... I can't really picture it working Confused

*ponders along with Christy*

_________________

In memory of Riley, the bestest, most squishiest ratty anyone could ever hope for

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:57 am

	Sparrow wrote:
	But how would you keep the pvc stable? I'd be afraid it would fall out after a while... I can't really picture it working ponders along with Christy

Well, that's what I'm still kinda trying to work out....

_________________
Christy
RP Admin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frodo, Zorro, Erzulie, Maeve, Clara, Molly & Emily

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:23 am

	Quote:
	Sparrow wrote: But how would you keep the pvc stable? I'd be afraid it would fall out after a while... I can't really picture it working ponders along with Christy Well, that's what I'm still kinda trying to work out....

Which is why I think it would be better to cut a hole and just wire it together... make it one big cage with a doorway. I figure, I won't wire it so much that it'll be impossible to clean. Just a few twists here and there... but I'm too scared of it not working... the 2 cages would have been a waste of money... *sigh* I think I'll just wait it out until I can get my bookcase/dresser. I'm checking garbages constantly Mr. Green

_________________

In memory of Riley, the bestest, most squishiest ratty anyone could ever hope for

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:27 am

Sparrow wrote:

Which is why I think it would be better to cut a hole and just wire it together... make it one big cage with a doorway. I figure, I won't wire it so much that it'll be impossible to clean. Just a few twists here and there... but I'm too scared of it not working... the 2 cages would have been a waste of money... *sigh* I think I'll just wait it out until I can get my bookcase/dresser. I'm checking garbages constantly Mr. Green

Well, I thought about doing that too, but due to the combined width of the cages if I put them directly together I don't have a litter pan long enough without having one specially made. I have been thinking about having one made of plexiglass and was quoted $100 for one. But then I have to figure out how to support the middle floor because it will sag in the middle! Boy would I love to have them both side by side, still removable from each other and with plenty of support! *ponders ponders ponders*

_________________
Christy
RP Admin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frodo, Zorro, Erzulie, Maeve, Clara, Molly & Emily

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:31 am

Wait... I don't really understand... LoL- Why would you have to have a long litter pan? Why would the middle sag? I'm sorry... I can get a little dense sometimes, but could you explain? LOL

_________________

In memory of Riley, the bestest, most squishiest ratty anyone could ever hope for

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:37 am

Hehehe...ok I will try to explain. This is my cage setup now (minus the stockings, it was Christmas):

My plan was to remove the right side of the left cage and remove the left side of the right cage and push them together to make one giant cage that can still sit on the table. However, the litter pans keep the cages from being able to push together because they are two seperate 2" high pans. In the photo the cages are already pushed flush together, and the litter pans are edge to edge but that still leaves a 3" gap between the actual cages since the cages sit inside the litter pans..see my problem? So I'd have to have one large pan that both cages can sit in together. And I don't think that middle level will be sturdy enough just connected to each other...and I need to find a way to connect them sturdily while still being able to take them apart as two seperate cages for cleaning. There is no way I could drag that whole thing around!

My other option is to stack them which would be very easy, but I really don't want to do that...I have to be difficult.

_________________
Christy
RP Admin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frodo, Zorro, Erzulie, Maeve, Clara, Molly & Emily

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:52 pm

I LOVE the stockings!! That's SO cute!!

I'm still not sure you need a longer litter pan - could you not just create a tunnel bridge between the two cages?

If not, cut the adjoining sides off the litter pans and nail them both down onto a larger sheet of wood?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:04 pm

How about this...cut a hole in both cages at the same level, and get a tube and a square face plate to fit inside the cage, that will cover the cut wires. Make a similar square and tube for the other cage, with the tube for the second cage having a larger diameter than the first. The larger tube will fit over the smaller tube, and will help support the inner tube. You could have a sheet metal shop make this, or go here:

http://www.tapplastics.com/

And get one made of plastic. Use some bungee cords to hold the cages together.

_________________
Bob Ostrow, the maestro of delicatessenland!

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:13 am

My friend connected three huge wire cages for her prairie dogs. Only she stacked them on top of each other. Hers had those little clips holding the wire together. She took all those off to remove the top of the bottom cage,a real pain, you'll need pliers for this. Then she used her wire cutters to cut a big square off to the side of the cage in the bottom of the next layer cage. Anything that was sharp she filed down smooth. Then she put the cage on top of the bottom one and put those thick plastic ties (can't think of what they are called) they are long and you put one end into a hole and pull and then you can't take it apart. Sorry. Any way she cut it off so the tie wasn't sticking out. Then she did the same thing to the top cage. She put ladders in for them climb up to the different levels. Then she duct taped a blanket on the ladder to make it easier for them to climb.

_________________
Rat lover forever!
Dianne

http://www.vlademier.net/Welcome
To all the rats who have touched my heart... I will love you forever.