RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:07 am

I was in a rather lively debate about floor space and a comment was made that made me think about the 18” of wasted space in my tank…. (Thanx – LW)

I want to try something and I don’t know if it will cause any issues.

I would like to first experiment with some strong smelling cheese “truffles”. Find out what they like.

On cage cleaning day when the tank is bare fill the tank with about 6 - 8” of very lightly packed peat moss,

Then take small portions of the favorite cheese and randomly “hide” the “truffles” by poking them down with your finger then covering them with dirt.

Does anybody know of ay rat / peat moss issue???

If it’s an all clear I want to try it.
It should not only thrill the rats but I am guessing it will help keep tank smells down too.

JBC

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:04 am

There is a link to a similar digging box on Ratbehavior.org and they do enjoy digging boxes. The only real issue would be using soil that contains chemicals or could have parasites and other potential icky critters. If the soil is free of those (not necessarily sterile, but not exposed to, say, visits from wild rodents) then the only real concern I'd have would be potential collapse of the soil on top of them if it's too wet or too crumbly and the resultant trapping or inability for them to find their way out. Because I assume the tank sides are firmly fixed together you may want to be sure you can easily get to them should an underground emergency occur.... but no - they love digging boxes and those are the only real issues I can think of.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:08 am

My digging box is about 14" x 9" with 6" deep side walls!
I just set the whole thing in the bottom of the cage and they have soooo much fun!
Their tails are really dirty though! heheheheeee!

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:37 am

Come on guys you should now by now....

It wont be a "digging box"
It will be the WHOLE BOTTOM OF THE CAGE!!!!

*read that last part like you're introducing a ROCK STAR!!!!
You know pump your fist, mabey even flicker the lights...

So what is the better "soil" to use. The only reason why i thought of peat was from when i had a scorpion. Is there something better?

JBC

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:03 am

JBC...
I got that you want to do the entire bottom of your cage...

You are Braver than I am!!! LOL! I guess you would have to decide how long it could go
without being dumped out...whats a good guess?? 2 weeks? I dunno?
Just throwing an idea out there. I bought potting soil at WalMart....the kind that has no additives in it.
It is really inexpensive too. Sorry I dont have the bag I threw it out already....but it was the store brand.

If I were you...and did decide to try it, I would take your water/rock area and use that for food.
I mean they are going to most likely bury some food anyways....but at least they could have some fresh available too. I left the dog box inside the cage for 4 days and they had so much fun...only thing now is the dirty tails. I think they will clean them....if not in a few days I could give them a little tail wash...just the tail, I not so sure I agree with giving rats baths.
Call me crazy....but rolling in the dirt is a bath in my eyes for rodents.

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:44 am

Dawn - If you don't mind the mess. Fill your tub up to about rat knee deep (at the deep end) and let them loose. They go nuts....

As for how long???? I have no clue, was planning on smell/sight more than time frame. In the maze post (i have reread that thing about 10 times) LW made a comment about the 18" of wasted space and that i should drop a shelf down 2/3 of the way. Again rereading that thread the most polite "flame war" ever the digging thing came up, and as i watched the rats play in the race track i noticed the way they are acting in the middle (like they where under ground). And it hit me they can go up all they want. They can only go down about 2-3”. So what the heck…

The terrerium – NOW that is gunna rock….
I hope I can get the filtration right. I want to be able to put gold fish or guppies in it with them.

I have a spare 20 gal long tank I want to use for it. Thinking 2/3 land 1/3 water. W/water fall and stream..

My plans are to build a topper for the tank and junction so it can doc with the Lion‘s Den (it’s not a rat cage any more). Hang some heavy black canvas between cages and set a grow light on a timer over the terrarium. It should be like being able to wake up and go outside anytime they want to…

JBC

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:59 am

Aye - generally rats do perfectly well bathing themselves with their tongues. If they like water, and are happy playing in it, then that's good also (pea fishing, swimming bowls etc) but generally there's no need to wash them down with soap and water unless they've really got into something nasty that they won't, or would be dangerous, to wash off with their tongues. The only other real exception to that is if they're not washing themselves well due to age, illness, or occasionally when they have really grotty tails - but then it often is possible to keep them dapper with a wipe down with a damp cloth or pet safe wipe.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:03 am

	Quote:
	I hope I can get the filtration right. I want to be able to put gold fish or guppies in it with them.

JBC - I don't know if you already know this, but rats can, and will, hunt and kill small fish and birds. Just so as you know... I know some people think it's ok to let them hunt fish, but a lot of folk here feel the same way about that as live feeding rodents to herps as well. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:06 pm

Thank you

Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:12 pm

Just in case…
I was not talking bout full on “soap and water” bath…
Just a tub full of water and sum critters…

Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:32 pm

LW - After thinking about it a bit (your cave in comment)...
I may have an idea for a dig box that is safe (call it cave in proof) but everybit as fun and the mess is optional...

Will post pix, results, and cost when i am done

Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:10 am

Wow, JBC you have some really creative ideas...I have read all your posts, and about how you like having your rats in a "natural enviroment" and I think its pretty cool!! Your rats must love it, but don't you think that possibly putting all these "natural things in" such as peat moss, and even live things such as fish, harm your rats? I'm not saying I disagree with you, but couldn't these things carry parasites and such? Also, feeding live fish to your rats, as Andy said (LW) is basically the same as feeding live rodents to reptiles, and I am against that (as most people here are).

Don't get me wrong, I think that a lot of your ideas are very creative.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:12 am

Soil, for a digging or tunnelling box, is fine, as long as you get it from a source that is free from nasties. I believe the soils you can get from garden centres is generally sterilized or only innoculated with soil bacteria that generally don't cause illnesses - the real problem would be exposing rats to soil from sources that might be contaminated with animal feces (and potentially harmful organsims and parasites) and which wild rodents could come into contact with.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:11 am

Littlerattie - Thank you for your response but please forgive me, I don’t believe that you actually have read any of my posts – scanned possibly but not read. The injustice of scanning can be when you stop because you read something you don’t like, or don’t want to read and discredit the rest of the post or idea. I hope that is not what you are doing.

Please take this reply as a direct response to your questions with some explanation and detail of my situation. Understand I am challenging the over all idea of the current “Toy” concept and am taking your comments - as I feel they would be quite typical for the board and the hobby as a whole – and replying to them, I am not challenging you or upset with you in anyway.

LR - “but don't you think that possibly putting all these "natural things in" such as peat moss, and even live things such as fish, harm your rats?” – In response to your question as it pertains to the topic at hand, Yes, I do. This concern was the driving factor behind the original post, and due to the above question I would assume you missed these

- "Does anybody know of ay rat / peat moss issue??? "
- "So what is the better "soil" to use. The only reason why I thought of peat was from when I had a scorpion. Is there something better?" - Just in case - Emperor Scorpions burrow so typically peat is used for bedding - it sold at pet shops, it is clean, and its also kind of shapeable.

Also, I don’t know that I said I was going to feed my rats fish – I did not feel the need to expand on this, I just acknowledged the point made with a simple thank you and continued with the topic at hand.

Also just in case, please don’t confuse natural with natural toys (rope / dirt / live food ect.) – See I am working on getting my rats into a more natural state of mind – they where VERY unstable and unsocial when I got them. I do not have access to a breeder at this time so all of these rats came from the pet store and it shows. Since I have started down this path they are starting stabilize mentally and physically with any luck I may even be able them take out of the cage – soon I hope.

The hammock thing was meet with a resounding “WTF… is this..”
I mean yea they hid in the hideout I had mounted at the top of the cage, and if the rats I have currently where from a breeder, I would have assumed “awwww look they like it” but with these rats I knew that was not the case.

You could say I took the “if you love them let them go” approach with out actually letting them go. With the changes I saw after only one week I was left to ask the question: Are we as a hobby actually enriching the in-cage lives of the rats we keep with the toys we give them? After all when they are out of the cage they are the cutest little balls-of-fur ever, when they are put back in the cage they are nothing more than a caged animal in need of something to do (how much cage time does your rats get? And How do they spend that time?).

Having an understanding of a rat’s intellect and ability to learn leads me to believe that we are not. A quick trip to the pet store should confirm this as well. - I challenge anybody here to find a toy that will keep your rat entertained mentally, at best you will find bastardized hamster toys (balls, wheels etc.) or ferret toys with the words “Pet Rats” haphazardly thrown onto the side of the box (if you are really lucky it may even have a pic of a rat on it). Most of these “toys” from the stores, they get bored with within an hour, or two at the most. So again I had to ask how effective was that $15.00 that I just spent? And was it really spent on the rat or because it is “just-so-cute” and I thought it looked nice?

If I apply the same logic to of all of the “toys” I give my rats that they enjoy and use (Approx $16.00 worth of rope and about $35.00 of 4” drainage tile and a small parrot ladder and I don’t remember the cost) I am seeing the following from my investment:

- I see the new-toy-in-the-cage type activity the entire time they are awake.
- I get a level of intensity that I have never seen from any rat I have ever kept or been around, at food time (think holy $#(% I just won the lottery).
- I see the physical abilities of the animals that hammocks and the like don’t bring out (balance, jumping, lighting speed, etc.)
- The best part about all of this, I do not see an end in sight, it is only getting better.

Compared to the $45.00 worth of colorful but worthless pet shop toys that they had access to, the difference is night and day, I guess with all the anecdotal info I didn’t feel the need to re-ask that question, I knew the answer.

I am sorry but I think I have stumbled onto a major discrepancy in the hobby.

- The hobby as a whole needs to ask some hard questions of themselves as a collective group like the zoo’s did some time back (I am 33 years old and I can see major differences in how the animals where kept then to now; as can most adults).
- I also think the hobby is - unintentionally - not keeping the best mental interest of the rats that they keep in mind when they design a cage or cage toys for rats.

It is getting better - heck, I can remember many odd looks at the pet store when I was asked what I was feeding when I bought a rat and I gave them my answer - but it is not even close to where it needs to be.

I gave my rats some options (the wild or a hammock), I am building what my rats are happiest with – The irony here is that it is the human side of this discussion that is having the most issues with this apparent radical idea of letting a rat be a rat when they are in the cage. The bigger irony is the group of humans with the issue – after all, all I have ever advocated was to give your rats the options and see what happens.

Ultimately, I let my rats go and they are currently on their way back to me.

So in closing - “don't you think that possibly putting all these "natural things in" such as peat moss… harm your rats?” – In the bigger picture of rat psychology I have only one answer to give, ABSOLUTLY NOT!!!!!!

So my challenge is simple, did you really read this or did I loose you somewhere at the beginning? If I lost you, the way I see it your rats are lost too.

And that bugs me,
JBC

Last edited by jonnyboxcutter on Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:12 am

LW – After reading some of these comments (cave in / Dirty tails / parasites) about the digging box I decided to skip the whole soil option and work on one that will be safe (cave in proof) and clean (no soil to kick out). I will post details when it is done.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:36 am

	jonnyboxcutter wrote:
	Littlerattie So my challenge is simple, did you really read this or did I loose you somewhere at the beginning? If I lost you, the way I see it your rats are lost too. And that bugs me, JBC

I think you took my post a little too seriously...I just had a question and you turned it into an insult or something...
Saying that my rats are "lost" is a little hurtful...everyone here loves their ratties, and spoils them, and that includes me. Just because my views aren't exactley aren't like yours doesn't mean I'm wrong, we can all have our own opinions...

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:41 am

LR- Thank you for making my point

JBC

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:52 am

I didn't mean that I was "lost", I see your point. But my rats live on hammocks and "colorful petstore toys", so basically, to my understanding, you see my rats as "lost". My rats love their lives, I see it in their shining eyes, and active lively personalities, and when I look at them I can't believe that someone would see them as "lost".
I like your theories, and I'll have to try some of them out, I just don't see why you have to be so against people who give their rats hammocks. Confused

Sorry, I'm rambling again. Embarassed

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EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:54 am

JBC - does it have to be an either/or situation? Many rats love hammocks, igloos whatever. Are they somehow precluded because they're not stimulating enough - or are they also useful as resting spots, stashing spots, things to break falls, extra hanging out spots?

The soil explanation was more for little ratty, to explain that not all soil is harmful.

And I know you feel strongly about it, but please let's try and keep this discussion free from personal attacks and flames please - on all sides. Let's not have anything descend into nastiness in Ratpalace's last week.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:01 am

Thank you Andy.

_________________
EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:02 am

LR - I think the point he's trying to make is - can we make their in cage time even better for them than we already do... Like, a rat might appear to be ok living alone, but we know they prefer being in pairs or groups. Some people still feel that it's ok to regularly (as opposed to those rats who don't get on with others) keep rats alone even though they'd be happier with a buddy. They might be ok in a cage with minimal stimulation, but could we make them even happier by stimulating them even more? And do we have to spend a lot of money on things to do it? Can we improve rat toys and cages above and beyond what we already give them?

Though I don't think it fair to assume that everyone just dumps in a hammock, igloo and food bowl. wink

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:06 am

LW - "please let's try and keep this discussion free from personal attacks and flames please" Please point to anything i have posted on this forum that leads you to this comment? I dont know that I have.

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:10 am

"does it have to be an either/or situation?" absolutly NOT!!!!

"LR - I think the point he's trying to make is - can we make their in cage time even better for them than we already do... Like, a rat might appear to be ok living alone, but we know they prefer being in pairs or groups. Some people still feel that it's ok to regularly (as opposed to those rats who don't get on with others) keep rats alone even though they'd be happier with a buddy. They might be ok in a cage with minimal stimulation, but could we make them even happier by stimulating them even more? And do we have to spend a lot of money on things to do it? Can we improve rat toys and cages above and beyond what we already give them?" - All of this is what i am talking about

"Though I don't think it fair to assume that everyone just dumps in a hammock, igloo and food bowl" - I dont think I said this...

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:21 am

I didn't say you had - I simply expressed my desire that no-one did. As I said - keep it nice on ALL sides. I actually posted that right at the beginning but you two replied a whole lot of times while I was typing it up. So it wasn't aimed at you specifically, but everyone in general.

Glad that I understand where you're coming from. It's not necessarily saying that things are terrible but can we make it even better for them.... but as long as it's clear that is what it is - not an accusation or a judgement, but looking at ways to improve things and discussing them.

And I was being a little flippant with that last remark, hence the wink

- but you never did ask about how my cages are set up and as it happens, many of the things you do or have suggested I've tried variations of past and present - though limits are sometimes in place with poorly or old or weak rats that preclude certain things.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:25 am

"I didn't say you had - I simply expressed my desire that no-one did. As I said - keep it nice on ALL sides. I actually posted that right at the beginning but you two replied a whole lot of times while I was typing it up. So it wasn't aimed at you specifically, but everyone in general." - Just making sure...