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phoenix
Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:06 am
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 *hums* It is the lump that never ends..... *with pics |
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Yes, it goes on and on my friends!
Some vet started draining it not knowing what it was
And they'll continue draining it forever just because....
It's the lump that never ends!
YES, you guessed right! Lumpy Lestat made an amazing comeback, after just one wonderful lump-less week  .
Sooo, he came in with me to the vet who lanced it again.
This was also my first night working there, so he got to help me learn to register patients on the computer and he was a positive representative /greeter to all who dared enter his new kingdom.
Luckily he didn't have to come in again until I started working, so I got my staff discount, and my lovely vet only charged for the lancing. 
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix
Last edited by phoenix on Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:23 am
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| RE: *hums* It is the lump that never ends..... |
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Oh dear - he has a persistant abscess? Ick.
Your vet had him on chloramphenicol, right? It may be worth looking at cefa drops or a related one, or ieven clavamox - they're both very good for skin infections.
Also, did he have you washing and draining it everyday (i.e. taking off any scab, keeping the hole open, washing it out etc) to let it heal from the inside out?
Occasionally, you need to have them have a small op to make sure it stays open and heals - to remove a node of infection (such as if it's a cyst that keeps getting infected, or if there's some scarring or other source of infection that isn't healing) and/or tacking open the edges of the incision to ensure it doesn't heal over before it's done with. Hopefully not, and whatever happens this time will sort it out. 
_________________
Andy & The Rats
 ~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
 ~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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Debbie
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:46 am
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We sure have had amazing luck with Cefa here. Suzie's incision abscessed terribly after she got at her internal sutures. The Cefa REALLY saved the day.
And Snicker's incision abscessed too....the Cefa cleared it right up.
I bow down to Cefa!
_________________
Debbie and the gang of spoiled furries |
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phoenix
Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:19 am
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He's on .13 ml of Chlorpalm daily until the 14th. Probably will extend that since he's got a new open wound.
The sad thing is I was scrubbing it daily for a week (and per vet's orders not being too gentle with it). Rats are such amazing creatures, I can't believe how quickly they heal.
His new incision is a bit larger than before. Silly bugger jumped when the blade entered, leaving quite the gash, but the vet thinks it might help draining, and possibly slow down the healing  .
So now I know that I have to be even more aggressive with my cleaning. Poor guy was mad at me enough for what I was doing before.  That's what he gets for having a persitant abscess
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:38 am
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:25 am
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Ohhh boy, he's a big lad! 
It does look like an abscess - they're generally pretty gross looking. If it's any consolation, I have one on my chest right now, and it looks worse, but it's not hurting me and I'm feeling ok. 
Have you had his teeth checked to be sure he doesn't have a dental abscess that's come through to the outside of his face?
Do you know what strength/concentration the chloramphenicol is? He should be getting 37.5 - 135mg three times a day by mouth - I don't know how effective it would be giving it just once a day, and I don't know how much he's getting from just the volume.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:09 am
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You think he's big from the pics? Try having that beast on your shoulder for any amount of time!
I'm working tomorrow, so I can talk to the vet about if it might be a dental absess. That would explain why it keeps coming back.
Hmm, what are you measuring in?
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:41 am
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No, I think he's big from his weight - I had two boys that hit 800g (which is 1 and 3/4 lb) and I know how much that weighs... I miss my squishy love bugs - Charlie and Newton the Two Tonne Agouti Cutie. 
Do ask about that as it's on his jaw - it might be hard to tell without X-rays as if it is, it's a rear tooth, which is hard to check and it's not always visible on direct looking (even if you can look inside their mouths that far back), but hopefully you can get that done cheap or free if you ask nice. It's definitely something worth doing because if it is, it's not going to clear up until that tooth is removed (as it's probably got some damage or decay and I don't think they do fillings on rat teeth). If it does need extraction though, molars don't grow like incisiors do, so you wouldn't have to worry about overgrowing teeth. Hopefully though, it's just in the tissue as that will make it easier to clear up. And do ask about cefadroxil or cephalexin - generally chloramphenicol should be restricted to more severe infections, as it's a pretty nasty antibiotic... you can use cefa drugs alone, or (especially if dental problems are likely involved) you can add metronidazole for extra coverage to them, or use metronidazole/baytril for the same purpose. The dosages are here:
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/cefadroxil.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/cephalexin_monohydrate.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/antiinfectives/metronidazole_flagyl.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/basics/antimicrobials_according_to_site.php
Measuring in? Not sure what you mean - units for the concentration of the chloramphenicol solution? It will be in either mg/ml, or an XX% solution.
Edit - I forgot. Could you possibly shrink those pictures down a little - they're very large, and they throw off the tables a bit. Can you make them 600px wide max, or link to them rather than embed them as images? Ta. 
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:02 am
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Hehe, I caught one of my co-workers baby talking to him and she sheepishly said "well, he's the biggest rat I've ever seen"
Plus side to working at a vet clinic? No one is afraid when you bring the rats in. In fact I practically have to beat them off the ratties with sticks.
I hope it's just the tissue, but luckily I now have a steady job plus staff discount on treatments. Add that to the fact that my vet is most perplexed by this (and he's a man who likes to get the answers to issues) and I can hope for some low priced treatment. The last draining only cost me $23, and I'd get to see any procedure being down to him (including surgeries). WOOT.
The bottle says 250 MG/5 ML. Does that mean anything to you? I'm still learning about meds at the clinic. Also, how nasty are we talking? I will be talking to the vet tomorrow when he gets to work about this.
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:07 am
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OK - 250mg/5ml means that there are 250 milligrams of chloramphenicol palmitate in 5 millilitres (and 1ml = 1cc) of solution.
So, if we divide both sides (the mg and the mls) by 5, we get:
250/5 = 50 mg
5/5 = 1ml
So there are 50mg of chloramphenicol palmitate in 1 ml of solution - or a concentration of 50mg/ml.
Simple division so far, right?
Right: So he's being given 0.13mls of the solution a day. To work out how many mg of chloramphenicol are in this volume of the solution, we want to multiply both sides of the concentration by 0.13:
50 x 0.13 = 6.5 mg
1 x 0.13 = 0.13 ml
So, when he is being given 0.13mls of solution, then he's getting 6.5mg of chloramphenicol palmitate. He's getting that once a day.
Now we need the recommended dosages for rats - going by the reference page on Ratguide.com (it also contains the reason why it's reserved for severe infections in there so it might be worth showing it to your vet when you discuss things if you're concerned about it):
We're given 4 recommendations, but only two of them refer to Chloramphenicol Palmitate. For reference: PO means by mouth, and q8h means every 8 hours, or three times a day (and q6h would be every 6 hours, q12h would be every 12 hours etc).
(Chloramphenicol palmitate) 25-90 mg/lb q8h; PO (Ref 4) => This means for every 1lb of body weight of rat, give between 25 and 90mgs of chloramphenicol palmitate, every 8 hours by mouth. (Based on the RMCA drug chart)
or
(Chloramphenicol palmitate) 50 mg to 200 mg/kg g8h; PO (Refs 1, 2) => This means for every 1kg (2.2lb) of body weight of rat, give between 50 and 200mgs of chloramphenicol palmitate, every 8 hours by mouth. (Based on dosages given in Exotic Animal Formulary, Second Edition, 2001, James W. Carpenter, MS;DVM , Ted Y. Mashima, DVM, David J. Rupiper, DVM and Ferrets, Rabbits, and Rodents Clinical Medicine and Surgery, Hillyer and Queensberry, 1997)
As a rough estimate, if a dosage is given in mg/lb, double that to get dosage/kg. It's not precisely accurate, but it's close enough to compare. From this, you can see that the dosage for 1kg is about double that given for 1lb, so they basically agree with each other.
Your boy is 1.5lb in weight, so we want to multiply both sides of the dosage by 1.5:
Min: 25 x 1.5 = 37.5mg
Max: 90 x 1.5 = 135mg
Rat: 1 x 1.5 = 1.5lb
So we want to give him somewhere between 37.5mg and 135mg 3 times a day, or between 112.5mg and 405mg a day. Currently he's getting 6.5mgs, if that concentration is correct (250mg/5mls). That's 1/17th to 1/62nd of the recommended dose - and thoroughly pointless. It's likely to be doing absolutely nothing, except possibly running the risk of causing toxicity to your rat, and triggering Chloramphenicol resistance in any bacteria in his body. It's certainly not likely to resolve his abscess.
To get the right dosage, at a minimum, you would need to give him 2.25mls a day in three doses - so 0.75mls (37.5mg) every 8 hours.
50mg/ml => to get 112.5mg, divide 112.5 by 50 to work out how many mls you would need.
112.5/50 = 2.25mls in a day.
Divide the total dose into three amounts as you need to give it every 8 hours:
2.25/3 = 0.75mls given q8h
You can then double check that by multiplying both sides of the medication concentration (50mg/mls) by 0.75 to work out how many mg you are giving - just as we did when working out how much he was getting when you gave him 0.13mls:
50 x 0.75 = 37.5mg
1 x 0.75 = 0.75mls
I don't know if you can follow that - if not, your vet certainly should. Print it off, and take it to him, and explain that the chloramphenicol, at this dose, is going to be pointless if that concentration of 250mg/5mls is correct.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:24 am
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Ok, info is printed and I'm prepared to corner him tomorrow . Scary stuff, that is. Should I even think about medicating my rats tonight? 
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:45 am
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To be honest, it's probably not worth it... but on the off chance that it's keeping things under control (though I really can't imagine that it is) I probably would give it.... It would be sod's law that you don't give it tonight and he worsens overnight, and then you'd feel guilty, even though the chances are it would have happened anyway.
I edited the links to your pics - people can click on them to view the images without it throwing off the tables.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:52 am
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I think I'll just skip it. Lestat loves it, but if all it's doing is building an immunity then I can't see why I should bother. Kermit on the other hand will be thrilled. He hates meds with a passion.
Hehe, sorry about them being so large. Sometimes it's hard to judge (19in monitors have their downsides...). I also didn't scale them down as much as I normally do, because I was hoping to give a better view of the hole.
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:04 am
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Aye - whatever you're using to scale them should tell you the size of them - just double check and make sure they're under 600 pixels wide, and you'll be ok. If they need to be larger, either trim them to the relevant bit or, link away. It makes it easy for people on dialup as well because they can choose to load it but still read the thread without waiting forever.
From what I remember, Chloramphenicol has a bitter flavour to it..... which is weird, because so does Baytril and we know how much they generally hate that stuff!
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:10 am
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Hehe, I try.... but it seems so small to me!
I don't know what stuff you've been using, mine smells like a lovely vanilla . Can't say i've tasted it though.
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:49 am
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Aye probably not a good plan.... chloramphenicol is restricted for things like septicaemia (blood poisoning), meningitis and typhoid in humans where nothing else is working... and eye drops for bacterial conjunctivitis (pink eye).... which seems weird to me... as you can buy the eye drops over the counter...
I'm allergic to the stuff though - I had the drops as a kid for conjunctivitis and they made my entire face swell like a balloon. I worry about random use of it, especially as a first line choice (though it seems to have been prescribed a few times for Canadian RP members and occasionally US ones) because it's not nice stuff - it can cause nasty side effects (and it's not always related to dose size). It can lead to bone marrow suppression or full blown aplastic anaemia (where you produce a reduced number of or no blood cells respectively - the former is related to high doses and is reversible, but the latter can occur with the smallest exposure and is irreversible. It can cause inflammation and damage to the liver, it can cause inflammation and damage to the nerves of the eyes.... it's icky stuff.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:18 pm
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wow.... Yeah, makes me very glad I didn't sample it. And makes me wonder why it was prescribed for my poor ratties.
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:08 pm
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It can be very useful in infections that aren't responding to anything else (it's one of the few antibiotics that are active against mycoplasma, along with quinolones (like Baytril), macrolides (like azithromycin), aminoglycosides (like gentamicin) and tetracyclines (like doxy), and can be good during severe systemic infections) but it's really not a good plan for first line attack. Does your vet/surgery see a lot of rats or are they relatively inexperienced when it comes to rats? I've also seen a couple of other people recently on here say that their vets gave them chloramphenicol as a first choice drug - which just kind of reminds me of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, rather than trying the nutcrackers first.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:11 am
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They've got the most experiance of any vet in the area for rodents, but I believe that Twitch and I are really the first to have rats in on a regular basis.
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:58 am
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Ah ok... That may be it then, if they don't see a whole lot of rats.... but at least you're in the perfect position to teach them rat medicine.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:31 am
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*rips out hair* I went in tonight with all my info, only to find that he's away until the 20th.
Is it alright to dismember by boss/vet?
I could always go to the other vet who worrks there... she has just as much experiance as he does with rats. *shrugs*
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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LittleWillow
MODERATOR & RP Supporter
Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:09 am
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I would probably go to the other vet, if she's just as good - I wouldn't want to leave that abscess for another 11 days without effective treatment, just in case - at best, it will clear up on it's own. More likely is that it will persist and hopefully not hurt him too badly, but will just need treatment again in the very near future if it's not cleared up now. And worst case scenario is not nice at all, so I refuse to even go that route because I know full well that you'd never let it get that far.
Anyway - I think you should take that info in to the other vet - explain that he prescribed dose xx of chlorpalm but you/I don't think it's enough, show her the calcs and the references, ask about getting him checked over to be sure it's not dental in origin and go from there.
_________________
Andy & The Rats
~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~
~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~ |
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phoenix
Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:11 am
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Sounds like a plan to me. I'll keep my eye on it over the next few days and decide course of action from there. Last time I checked (1 hour ago? ) it was feeling different from the previous lumpies, so perhaps it is scar tissue? Sheesh, can this bugger ever be healty?
I love him.
_________________
mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix |
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