RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:41 pm

ok with all this, this is my breeding!

1)Mice should be bred primarily to improve health and temperament. All other factors should be secondary-i brred my mice to improve the mouse race!!! Mice for eva!!!
2) You should be able to financially support your Mice at all times- i my self dont hav a full time job, im not old enough, but my father is finacially secure but wont go over board with money.
3) You should have access to a veterinary practice that is knowledgeable in rodent care-Yes but they can be very expensive,but unless it is a huge surgery i can afford it.
4) You should be able to devote significant time to the breeding process-Every DAy!!! and EVERY NITE!!!
5) You should be able to provide homes for every mouse that you breed-yup:) my town luves mice so its ezy!
6) You should have an excellent grasp of rat genetics and understand why breeding a rat with an unknown history (including pet-store rats) is unwise-i realize it is unwise and i no a heap about geneics, i study em...
7) You should understand and be prepared for the medical issues that commonly affect Mice-i no most mouse dieeases and im always ready!
8) You should have an in-depth knowledge of Mice husbandry-yup i hav heaps of knowledge i have great cages and homes!!!
9) You should be sure that your breeding will not adversely affect other mice in your area-my breeding is done in my rmpus room not in my garage so wild mice are not a prob!!

My goals can be found in my other thread called "breeding hurt males"

do u think im a good Breeder Crossed Fingers

_________________
Rats r my Soul...Mice r my Heart!!! wink

Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:14 pm

I'll really leave this to other breeders to comment on - but just one point that I wanted to raise which is that point 9 really refers to the pet population rather than the wild one. In reality, it's probably more the case that wild mice would cause problems for your pet mice if they were to come into contact. The real meaning of that point, as explained further in the sticky, is that you have to be sure that by breeding mice for pets, you won't be overcrowding a market that's already full - in many places, there's limited demand for pet mice or rats. There might also be a big problem with rats that are in rescues and already need homes. It could be that there isn't currently a rescue available in your area and unwanted rodents are set free or killed (humanely or otherwise). In those kinds of situations, it might be better to look at rescuing, or to perhaps wait on the breeding. It really links into to the homing issue, knowing your market and so on.

Otherwise, I'll let those people who also breed to comment in details. However, without getting to know you a little more, it would be hard to comment on some aspects (such as husbandry - general mouse knowledge and experience). I know you have mentioned that you have a pet store that you have used for rehoming - this would be a concern, for example, as you would find it hard to follow up on these mice, and that would make it difficult to know for sure that you have healthy and happy lines. If this is something that you have done in the past but have stopped doing, or it's something that you would stop doing now (and that also includes accepting that it will be harder to find homes without using the pet store, and ensuring that you will be able to do so) then that would be less of a problem for people to accept.

Because of this, and because of some other confusion over things you've posted that have at times been a bit contradictory, I'm not totally sure that you've really understood all of the potential aspects of those points on what makes a responsible breeder - that's not an accusation or an insult, but simply that you may need to reconsider or discuss each aspect with other people more familiar with breeding than I am (particularly as you breed mice and I haven't had mice for 13 years, let alone bred them). You don't mention that you have a mentor, so it's definitely worth considering other ways that you can discuss breeding as a whole with experienced people to help you refine your own practices, and also so that you can learn new things and keep abreast of latest developments and so on. Perhaps some of the other mouse breeders can advise you on that.

I do have a question though. If people have pointed out (nicely!) issues that they were concerned with, would you consider stopping or delaying your breeding program until they were resolved? Not all breeders agree on exactly the way to do every single thing, and ultimately you're entitled to disagree with everything in that sticky. But generally, that's going to be rather unpopular and not necessarily doing the best for your mice. But if someone raised some serious concerns, would you be prepared to accept, or at least discuss and consider, the issues that are raised? In my mind, that's what makes the difference between a bad breeder and a good breeder that just needs a bit more help, advice and/or support. wink

I know it can be hard (and upsetting) if people give you criticism, even constructive criticism that suggests how you could improve things - but if you can accept that in good grace, then that will make you very much more adult than a lot of people.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:52 pm

If you really want to know if you are a good breeder or not, answer the following questions to the best of your ability. Searching websites for answers is cheating - so DON'T do it.

1) Where did your mice come from (originally)?

2) Are your mice pedigreed? If so, how many generations do you have information on? Do you have health notes on their ancestors? Have you met any of their ancestors (not counting ones you currently own)?

3) What are your mice housed in? Tanks? Wire cages? Other? What are their sizes/dimensions? How many mice are kept in each enclosure?

4) How old should female mice be before they are bred? How old should a male mouse be before they are bred?

5) How many litters should a female mouse deliver in her lifetime? Why?

6) What type of bedding do you use? How often is it changed? How do you clean your cages?

7) What do you feed your mice? (Be specific)

8) How much do you know about mouse health concerns (genetic and other)? Please list some common health concerns for mice.

9) What is the average lifespan for a mouse?

10) What is the average number of babies in a litter?

11) What would you do if your pregnant mouse is having difficulties giving birth?

12) How can you tell if a newborn mouse is feeding well?

13) What would you do if your mouse was not able to properly feed her litter?

14) How do you find new homes for your mice? Private adopters? Pet stores?

15) If you privately adopt out your mice, how do you know they are going to good homes? What do you do to insure they will be pets and not food for other animals?

16) If you take them to pet stores, please explain why you do so.

17) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self to a Black Self, what do you get?

18) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self carrying Long hair to a Blue Self carrying Long hair, what do you get?

19) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self carrying Long hair and Satin to a Black Self Long Hair carrying Blue and Satin, what do you get?

20) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that is very skittish? Why or why not?

21) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that also nips you occasionally? Why or why not?

22) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that is injured? Why or why not?

23) Would you breed a not so attractive mouse that has an excellent temperament? Why or why not?

24) What would you do if your mouse developed mammary tumors? Would you get it medical attention? Would you continue to breed its offspring?

25) At what age do baby mice open their eyes?

26) At what age does their coat come in?

27) At what age do nipples become evident on baby mice?

28) Do male and female babies have nipples?

29) At what age are baby mice weaned from mom?

30) What does "weaned" mean?

Okay, if you answer all of these questions to the best of your ability, we should be able to get a good feel of what kind of breeder you are.

_________________
Shanna
~ Serendipity Rodentry ~

Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:34 pm

I think as few as possible people should breed in any one area, mainly because there are so many homeless mice and rats waiting for homes and breeding reduces their chances of finding homes. I have rats from rescue situations as well as a petstore feeder and rats from wonderful experienced breeders. They are all sweet rats deserving of good homes and veterinary care when they are ill. Every once in a while, I go to www.petfinder.org just to see how many mice and rats (not to mention birds, dogs, cats, ferrets, guinea pigs, etc.) are still waiting for someone to love them and give them a home. It's so sad. There wouldn't be as many pets in humane societies and shelters if people didn't breed animals as much.

Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:38 am

That's a good point, Scrubjay, however good breeders do not contribute to the pet overpopulation problem. A good breeder ensures that each and every rat they breed goes to a good home, and they track those rats for the rest of their lives. In the event that the owner can no longer keep those rats, the breeder *should* always be willing to take them back. Good breeders are responsible for every animal that is born at their rattery for the entirety of those animal's lives, and so do not add to the number of homeless rats in their area.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:45 am

I agree somewhat Ratsicles; I think there is always a place for a few breeders in any area and I have a couple of rats from responsible breeders. I guess what I meant was that even if a breeder can guarantee homes for every baby, there is less demand for those who are in rescues and shelters. So, I didn't mean that breeder babies would add to the population of homeless pets, but that there is an indirect effect related to supply and demand. I really respect breeders that communicate amongst themselves in an area and limit their breeding to just a few litters a year at most. Even then, I see that the area in which I live has many more rats looking for homes (even beautiful pedigree rats from breeders) than homes looking for rats. oops, sorry to ramble wink

Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:05 am

I have to ask, how old are you?

For someone who supposedly has a good gasp on genetics, you certainly aren't that great with spelling and grammar.

(This is NOT a cheap shot. In conversing on the internet about potential people I want to work with or purchase pets from in the future, if someone cannot converse professionally than I will look elsewhere for a breeder that can.)

Also, I think that people who truly are "good" breeders should have enough confidence in that fact to not have to come looking for reassurance.

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Lise...

& Molly, Nora, and Tevy

Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:02 am

I second Lise's question about age. It's nothing against you personally, but I feel that breeding should be left to mature adults who have their own home, decent income, and the means to pay for every single animal they own to go to the vet and receive medication if necessary.

Another important step, I think, is running a rescue first. I don't mean to put rescues low on the ladder by any means, as I actually hold rescuers in higher regard than I do reputable breeders (and I love reputable breeders! Please don't flame me!). I feel that it's important to run a rescue before you begin breeding so that you know what it's like to care for and find good, responsible owners for large numbers of rats (as well as test your own abilities with large numbers of animals) before you begin breeding.

Have you apprenticed with a reputable breeder who's taught you everything they know over a period of years? Have you been with them step by step as they bred litters? Have you bred a litter with their guidance?

I'm not trying to knock you here, just trying to make you think of some things you may not have. In respect to your poll, I can't answer it because I don't know. I've never seen your practices, and as I'm not a breeder myself, I wouldn't know what to look for anyway. I can say this much, however. If you feel the need to post a poll on the Internet asking if you're a good breeder, you probably need to reevaluate your readiness to breed.

_________________
-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:22 am

To those Questions in my own experiance

1) Where did your mice come from (originally)-A breeder in my local shire "Hornsby"

2) Are your mice pedigreed? If so, how many generations do you have information on? Do you have health notes on their ancestors? Have you met any of their ancestors (not counting ones you currently own)?- i record EVERYTHING!! and i go back 13 generations thanks to the breeder i started from

3) What are your mice housed in? Tanks? Wire cages? Other? What are their sizes/dimensions? How many mice are kept in each enclosure?-Tanks, they are 2 foot by 1 and a half foot, houses 4 mice

4) How old should female mice be before they are bred? How old should a male mouse be before they are bred? Female, 1 month Male, 8 weeks, or for both fully grown cause they can get stunted by breeding

5) How many litters should a female mouse deliver in her lifetime? Why?-I say 2 MAX!!! i dont like putting to mch stress on my females

6) What type of bedding do you use? How often is it changed? How do you clean your cages?-Shavigns, changed every 3 days, tanks washed with disenfectant and then washed again and dried

7) What do you feed your mice? (Be specific)- the common mouse seed from my pet store and SOMETIMES (once a week) some vegies, carrot and stuff

8) How much do you know about mouse health concerns (genetic and other)? Please list some common health concerns for mice-i study genetics and these are some COMMON halth hazzards
-intergestion from cheese(i dont give my mice cheese but heaps of people do) give them vegies to clense there insides and refer to vet
-imonia(spelt wrong i think....) Hunch over mouse, heavy breathing, consult vet rite away!
-these are just some off hand i need my files for more

9) What is the average lifespan for a mouse-3 years in my experiance

10) What is the average number of babies in a litter?- i say 8

11) What would you do if your pregnant mouse is having difficulties giving birth-first make sure she is in a queit and dark place(if bleading consult a vet

12) How can you tell if a newborn mouse is feeding well- stomack should be white and babies should be slightly fat

13) What would you do if your mouse was not able to properly feed her litter-hand wean the litter, i have handreard a litter of 5 before, they where five days old, do this to stop stress on mother

14) How do you find new homes for your mice? Private adopters? Pet stores-PRIVATE adopters definetely!!! so u can keep records!! and no where ur mice are!

15) If you privately adopt out your mice, how do you know they are going to good homes? What do you do to insure they will be pets and not food for other animals- i only private adopt to people i no

16) If you take them to pet stores, please explain why you do so- pet stores are a LAST resorsce( i ahve never dont this before)

17) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self to a Black Self, what do you get-i hav no idear (being honest)

18) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self carrying Long hair to a Blue Self carrying Long hair, what do you get-i hav no idear (being honest)

19) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self carrying Long hair and Satin to a Black Self Long Hair carrying Blue and Satin, what do you get?-same answere

20) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that is very skittish? Why or why not- mice that are Skittish wont breed with males and hurt the males

21) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that also nips you occasionally? Why or why not?- same answer to above

22) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that is injured? Why or why not?- no cause injuries can weaken them and when rearing they can be under a lot of stress

23) Would you breed a not so attractive mouse that has an excellent temperament? Why or why not?- Yes because her babise may be the same

24) What would you do if your mouse developed mammary tumors? Would you get it medical attention? Would you continue to breed its offspring-STOP BREEDING imediately and consult a vet

25) At what age do baby mice open their eyes-ten days for me

26) At what age does their coat come inroughly ten days aswell

27) At what age do nipples become evident on baby mice-before 2 weeks, i dont pick them up till 2 weeks soi am not sure

28) Do male and female babies have nipples-only females

29) At what age are baby mice weaned from mom-5 weeks

30) What does "weaned" mean- finnished drinking milk.

31)how old r u?- i am 15 going 16 this year

now wat do u think?

Snagrit

Plz reply!!!!!!!!

especcially the person whom gave me Questions!!!

_________________
Rats r my Soul...Mice r my Heart!!! wink

Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:28 am

For those that appear a little confused, we are talking about mice here, not rats!

Ok, I am not here to flame people, as I know no one here off line, but please please please stop digging people into the dirt! We all started out somewhere- I myself started with a pair of mice from a petshop, bred them, outcrossed, inbred and so on...and 5 years later, I am breeding mice that originate from those 2 mice, and they have NEVER EVER had the slightest sniffle, let alone a tumour! I have done the same with rats. I don't know, maybe here in Australia we are lucky- I have only ever had one tumour in a rat, never in a mouse, and only know a couple of breeders who have had tumours, and funnily enough, 98% of those rodents came from so called healthy lines that went back generations!

I used to love this place, but I honestly feel like never coming back! I am sick to death of seeing negative things written towards people. It is what turns people away from the fancy- when I first found rat forums, I copped so much garbage from people that should really have been there to support me that it took me months of attending shows to actually feel like supporting the clubs by joining. And now, it's up to me and those like me who have a heart to go out and mentor new breeders, as we know what it's like when not even the club president will support us.

I'm sorry I'm ranting, but this has gone on too long.

Snagrit- I voted YES! In my opinion, anyone who has the guts to not fall down when others are so rude towards them deserves my respect! I'm sure you love your mice dearly, and they are overly happy you are their human mummy.

That's all.

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*~*~*~*~*~Hayley & her vermin friends~*~*~*~*~*

Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:45 am

I just had a decent read of the post from serendipity- question 19 really is a useless question to unless you are certain they live in a country that has satin mice! Snagrit mentioned in a previous post they are from Australia(perhaps you didn't see it), and we don't have satins!

_________________
*~*~*~*~*~Hayley & her vermin friends~*~*~*~*~*

Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:50 am

rattie_dreams, who do you feel is being rude here? The original poster asked for opinions on whether she was a good breeder or not. People have posted their opinions and queries about that. There is a sticky thread (that the original poster referred to) about the general principles that are regarded as defining a responsible breeder (but both the majority of people here at RP, and by many others too).

Perhaps things are different in Australia, but I know that many of these same principles are held whether breeding rats or mice, and by other Australian breeders. Anyone is - of course - free to disagree. But if you ask for opinions, then you have to accept that some people will disagree with you and as long as those opinions are stated politely, then there is no problem. That isn't being rude, simply by disagreeing. As it happens, most of the posts here have simply been asking questions and giving general opinions so I really don't understand where you are coming from regarding rudeness.

The only potential comment I can see that could be regarded close to rude was the one about grammar and spelling. That could have been phrased better. But ultimately, how you present yourself does impact heavily on people's opinions of you.

	Quote:
	I used to love this place, but I honestly feel like never coming back! I am sick to death of seeing negative things written towards people.

In case you missed the original thread, the admin team have already brought this issue up and we will take steps to deal with harsh or overly judgemental attitudes that are unnecessary. However, I fail to see anything in this thread that truly constitutes this. If you (or anyone) chooses to disagree with any aspect of breeding, if you decide that breeding pet store animals, not seeking vet advice, breeding without genetic or health knowledge or whatever is appropriate, then that is entirely up to you. But other people will disagree.

Breeding is a subject that is always controversial. With the general consensus we hold, some people hate our opinions for not discouraging all breeders. Other people hate us because we are "too harsh" or "too judgmental" or "digging people into the dirt". It will always be that way, as you can never satisfy everyone. Some people think anyone should be able to breed no matter what and others think we have too many animals in need of homes already so no-one should breed from a moral standpoint.

Everyone:
Please do not turn this into a flame war about the principles of breeding. The original poster asked for opinions regarding her own breeding practices. Feel free to post opinions on this, but do so in a polite and sensitive manner, and accept that people will have different opinions from you potentially. But if opinions are sought, then expect to receive them, even if they aren't agreeing with yours. If this thread turns into an argument or flames, then I will lock it.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:00 am

Some concerns I have from your answers (and take these as seriously as you want--I'm not a breeder of anything and never have been):

What type of shavings do the mice have in the cages?

What all is in the mouse mix you give them?

If you don't have a definitive answer for number of mice in a litter, and don't know what type of mouse you'll get breeding a blue self with a black self will get you, don't you think maybe you should put off breeding a little while and brush up on genetics? It may seem trivial, but knowing what types of markings come from what type of genes can ensure that you don't accidentally breed a litter with a serious hereditary problem that results in lifelong problems or a young death.

As to breeding a mouse with a skittish or nippy temperament, all animals WILL breed if given the chance, and a skittish or biting mouse should be a red flag as to one that shouldn't even be in the same tank as a mouse of the other gender.

As to your age, we already know my concerns there. As an addendum to this, I have had the privilege of knowing some 15-year-olds who were more mature than some 40-year-olds I've had the displeasure of knowing. You very well may be one of those 15-year-olds. My main concern with age is that you're not self-sufficient, and not being self-sufficient usually means that if there are serious complications with the birth requiring emergency surgery and mom balks at the vet's price, then you're kind of left high and dry.

Honestly, I think you'd be a better breeder than most people out there, but some of your answers make me think you're not quite ready. Some of your answers raised red flags, especially the ones about temperament and genetics. A biologist-like understanding of genetics should be a prerequisite to *anyone* even starting a breeding program, and all breeders should just instinctively know not to even give a skittish or biting animal a chance to become pregnant/impregnate other animals.

I honestly think you need to step back from breeding for a while and do lots of research on the above topics, then find a breeder who will mentor you. I'm not a breeder myself, and I've only done limited research on the subject of breeding rats and mice, but the idea that I know more about mouse genetics than someone who has been breeding in the past unnerves me a bit.

Rattie_dreams, I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, and I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. My only interest here is the well-being of the animals. I don't set out to be rude or hurt feelings, and I re-read what I write to make sure I'm not being unnecessarily rude. If I feel that someone needs to be screamed at to drill a point into their skull, I've never once been afraid to do so--on the Internet or in real life. My goal here is to ask questions to help Snagrit determine the answer to her own question, while keeping the well-being of the mice in mind.

_________________
-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:36 am

I hope I was not being rude--just raising some ethical questions about breeding of any animals. I think the most important question I would ask myself is "why do I feel I need to breed?" I don't know anything about mice, but I do know that I have my hands full with six male rats. I would never want to breed any animals myself, because I see no real need for it, no lack of mice and rats waiting for homes, and because there are so many breeders already out there. But if you love your mice and can afford vet care and can find great homes for all the babies that will provide good loving care for them, I have no problem with it. But again, why? It's worth asking the more basic question.

Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:51 pm

Snagrit,
don't get discouraged by the results of your poll. I believe in time you WILL be a good breeder. You seem to have a real love of mice and your enthusiasm makes me think you really are serious about being a breeder. I think it is important to step back and understand that people here are trying to give you advice based on their experiences and their understanding. They aren't trying to hurt your feelings. They are trying to help you. Don't give up on mouse breeding if that is your passion but perhaps it would be helpful to stop breeding right now until you have more knowledge and you are out on your own.
There is probably alot you can do without actually breeding mice right now. You could take in rescues like others suggested, volunteer at your local shelter and help educate potential mouse adopters about mice, try to volunteer at your local zoo in their rodent department and last but not least try to find an experienced breeder to be a mentor to you. Good luck.

_________________
Rat Goddess and the Bruxysnugs
Mama Lucy Beledi Bellatrixy Tatinka Kreaver

View my rat cam here

Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:42 pm

Okay, from the answers to this mini-quiz I gave, I would say that you have the potential to be a good breeder someday - but right now you are not quite there.

Here is that post, with your answers included and the accurate answers underneath.

	Snagrit wrote:
	To those Questions in my own experiance 1) Where did your mice come from (originally)-A breeder in my local shire "Hornsby"

That really does not answer my question. Is Hornsby the breeder name??

	Quote:
	2) Are your mice pedigreed? If so, how many generations do you have information on? Do you have health notes on their ancestors? Have you met any of their ancestors (not counting ones you currently own)?- i record EVERYTHING!! and i go back 13 generations thanks to the breeder i started from

So, am I to understand that you have not done an outcross at all since you first recieved your mice from "Hornsby"? While inbreeding mice is not necessarily a bad thing, it is necessary to outcross (use a mouse outside of the original lines) from a reputable breeder to keep your mice healthy.

	Quote:
	3) What are your mice housed in? Tanks? Wire cages? Other? What are their sizes/dimensions? How many mice are kept in each enclosure?-Tanks, they are 2 foot by 1 and a half foot, houses 4 mice

Really, you should only have 3 adult mice in a tank that size - four can be a bit crowded, but not bad if they all get along. To clarify, do you keep your males and females separate? If so, how are they housed (how many females in one tank...how many males in one tank?)

	Quote:
	4) How old should female mice be before they are bred? How old should a male mouse be before they are bred? Female, 1 month Male, 8 weeks, or for both fully grown cause they can get stunted by breeding

This one is wrong. Females should not be bred until they are at least 3 to 4 months old - any younger, and their development would be stunted. Males should be bred at 3-4 months of age, and on.

	Quote:
	5) How many litters should a female mouse deliver in her lifetime? Why?-I say 2 MAX!!! i dont like putting to mch stress on my females

This one is correct. Two litters are enough for any female mouse to raise.

Additonal question: How long should you wait between litters to rebreed a female?

	Quote:
	6) What type of bedding do you use? How often is it changed? How do you clean your cages?-Shavigns, changed every 3 days, tanks washed with disenfectant and then washed again and dried

What kind of shavings do you use? Pine? Cedar? Aspen? Other??
What type of disenfectant do you use on your tanks?

	Quote:
	7) What do you feed your mice? (Be specific)- the common mouse seed from my pet store and SOMETIMES (once a week) some vegies, carrot and stuff

Okay....I need more specific than that. What kind of "mouse seed" - what is included in that? Do you feed anything else other than the seed mix and the occasional veggies? What is the other "stuff"?

Quote:

8) How much do you know about mouse health concerns (genetic and other)? Please list some common health concerns for mice-i study genetics and these are some COMMON halth hazzards
-intergestion from cheese(i dont give my mice cheese but heaps of people do) give them vegies to clense there insides and refer to vet
-imonia(spelt wrong i think....) Hunch over mouse, heavy breathing, consult vet rite away!
-these are just some off hand i need my files for more

This one is wrong. While those are some common problems, what I am looking for here is health concerns - respiratory illness, tumors, cancers, abscesses, parasites (mites/lice), etc. If you do not know even the basic health concerns, that in itself is a red flag that you do not currently know enough to be breeding mice.

	Quote:
	9) What is the average lifespan for a mouse-3 years in my experiance

Actually, the average lifespan for a mouse is 1.5 years. It is possible that your particular mice may have longer lifespans, so this one is just for information's sake.

	Quote:
	10) What is the average number of babies in a litter?- i say 8

Close - the average litter size is between 6 and 12 babies.

	Quote:
	11) What would you do if your pregnant mouse is having difficulties giving birth-first make sure she is in a queit and dark place(if bleading consult a vet

While it is important that you have her in a quiet and dark place to deliver her litter, with complications you would need to immediately consult a vet. A baby could be caught in the birth canal (for example) and without immedite veterinary assistance, not only would the litter die but the mother could as well.

	Quote:
	12) How can you tell if a newborn mouse is feeding well- stomack should be white and babies should be slightly fat

Partially right. Newborn mice should have a milk belly - the white/yellow band on the stomach, and yes sometimes the stomachs are a bit extended. Also, they should very pink in color (not light pink or grey).

	Quote:
	13) What would you do if your mouse was not able to properly feed her litter-hand wean the litter, i have handreard a litter of 5 before, they where five days old, do this to stop stress on mother

Hand raising is the correct answer - but what do you mean by the second part? Did you take the babies away from mom to hand raise them because you felt the mother was stressed? What signs of stress was she showing that made you feel you needed to separate the babies from her?

	Quote:
	14) How do you find new homes for your mice? Private adopters? Pet stores-PRIVATE adopters definetely!!! so u can keep records!! and no where ur mice are!

This one is correct.

	Quote:
	15) If you privately adopt out your mice, how do you know they are going to good homes? What do you do to insure they will be pets and not food for other animals- i only private adopt to people i no

So, do you have a questionaire and/or contract for your mice? If so, what kind of information is found on your questionaire and/or contract?
16) If you take them to pet stores, please explain why you do so- pet stores are a LAST resorsce( i ahve never dont this before)

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	17) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self to a Black Self, what do you get-i hav no idear (being honest)

Okay....these genetics questions were put in for a reason - to see if you really have "studied genetics" like you have claimed. My answer for that would be no, you haven't.

The answer to this question is that you would get an entire litter of Black Self mice. Blue is a dilution of Black - therefore it is recessive. Black and Blue are not compatible, therefore you would end up with a litter of all Black. Black is dominant to all colors except for Agouti (and a few other dominants, like Brindle).

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	18) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self carrying Long hair to a Blue Self carrying Long hair, what do you get-i hav no idear (being honest)

Same thing - This question deals with simple recessives and how carriers work. The answer to this question is that the litter would be all Black Self mice, 25% of which would be Long Hair (since both parents carry it). Anyone who knows even the basics of genetics could figure this one out.

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	19) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self carrying Long hair and Satin to a Black Self Long Hair carrying Blue and Satin, what do you get?-same answere

Okay....a little more complicated. The colors would be 50% Black, 50% Blue (since one mouse IS Blue and the other CARRIES Blue, 50% of the litter would be Blue). Also, 50% of the litter would be Long Hair (same principle), and 25% would be Satin.

These questions dealt with simple Dominant and Recessive traits, as well as carriers. If you are going to be breeding mice, you should definitely study up on genetics. If you cannot answer simple genetic questions such as these, you should not be breeding mice.

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	20) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that is very skittish? Why or why not- mice that are Skittish wont breed with males and hurt the males

Any mouse will breed with any other mice - the only exception is really aggressive mice who physically injure others and must be kept alone. The answer to this question would be NO. A skittish mouse will pass that trait onto it's offspring, producing more skittish (aka not social) mice - that do not make good pets.

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	21) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that also nips you occasionally? Why or why not?- same answer to above

This one is also incorrect. You would not want to breed a mouse who nips because that aggression would be passed onto it's offspring, producing more aggressive mice that would not make good pets.

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	22) Would you breed a really attractive mouse that is injured? Why or why not?- no cause injuries can weaken them and when rearing they can be under a lot of stress

This one is a bit tricky. It really depends on the injury. But if it is a serious illness, then you would not want to breed them.

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	23) Would you breed a not so attractive mouse that has an excellent temperament? Why or why not?- Yes because her babise may be the same

This one is a bit tricky too - it really depends on what you are looking to produce. You obviously want to breed mice with excellent temperaments, as they would be passed onto their offspring. But, with this question, it depends on whether you care more about the mouse's temperament or it's appearance (type/color/marking/etc). It also depends on what your adopters want most - beautiful mice, or excellent temperaments. Idealy, you want both in the same litter.

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	24) What would you do if your mouse developed mammary tumors? Would you get it medical attention? Would you continue to breed its offspring-STOP BREEDING imediately and consult a vet

Good....but you have to do more than that. If a mouse you have been breeding has developed mammary tumors, not only would you want to stop breeding that line and consult a vet, but you would also need to inform the adopters (who adopted mice from that same line). Your adopters have a right to know that mammary tumors may also surface in the mice you adopted out to them.

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	25) At what age do baby mice open their eyes-ten days for me

Actually, the average is 12-14 days. Usually more around 14.

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	26) At what age does their coat come inroughly ten days aswell

This one is right - the coats are in by 10 days of age.

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	27) At what age do nipples become evident on baby mice-before 2 weeks, i dont pick them up till 2 weeks soi am not sure

Nipples become evident on females as soon as 8 days of age.
So, you are breeding these mice....but you don't even handle the babies until 2 weeks of age??? To properly socialize mice, you need to handle them FROM DAY ONE and everyday afterwards to ensure they are social.

[quote28) Do male and female babies have nipples-only females[/quote]
Correct.

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	29) At what age are baby mice weaned from mom-5 weeks

Technically, mice are weaned from mom at 21 days (3 weeks of age). They will continue to suckle from mom for a week or so afterwards, but the majority of their food should be solids.

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	30) What does "weaned" mean- finnished drinking milk.

Yeah....kind of. Weaned means they transition from drinking mother's milk to eating solid foods.

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	31)how old r u?- i am 15 going 16 this year

I didn't add this question.

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	now wat do u think? Snagrit Plz reply!!!!!!!! especcially the person whom gave me Questions!!!

My completely honest evaluation of your answers is that you have the potential to be a good breeder someday - but I do not think you are at that point just yet. I do think that you need to study a lot more - and prehaps get in contact with a well established, reputable mouse breeder in your area to mentor under.

Please note that none of this is meant to hurt feelings, or to belittle you - this is just to help you.

_________________
Shanna
~ Serendipity Rodentry ~

Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:50 am

serendipityrodentry wrote:

	Quote:
	17) Genetics question: If you breed a Blue Self to a Black Self, what do you get-i hav no idear (being honest)

Okay....these genetics questions were put in for a reason - to see if you really have "studied genetics" like you have claimed. My answer for that would be no, you haven't.

The answer to this question is that you would get an entire litter of Black Self mice. Blue is a dilution of Black - therefore it is recessive. Black and Blue are not compatible, therefore you would end up with a litter of all Black. Black is dominant to all colors except for Agouti (and a few other dominants, like Brindle).

I know that alot of overseas genetics differ from Australia in ratties, not sure if that is the same with mice. But as blue is my main colour for mice, I breed blues to blacks a fair bit. And I have never once got a whole litter of blacks! It depends on what else they carry- the blues carry choc and the blacks carry blue and chocolate alot of the time, which gives me blue, chocolate, black and lilac. Just thought I'd mention it, as we really cannot compare genetics from one country to another, especially when we are trying to educate newbies.

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*~*~*~*~*~Hayley & her vermin friends~*~*~*~*~*

Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:59 am

I'm learning so much

. Keep going!

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Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:03 am

Hayley - I'd definitely agree that genetics can differ greatly from one country to another... but I think that the question was phrased in a way that gives a number of possible answers in this case. If you breed blue to black, you would get all black, assuming they didn't carry any recessives that would match up to produce other colours. That's the main point - you need to justify it. That's part of the knowledge of genetics I think - knowing what you should get, and what you could get if they're carrying some recessives that you aren't aware of - which would lead to your blue, black, chocolate litter combinations.

It's much like people will say (just as an example) that "50% of the babies will be blue and 50% will be black" - in reality, you could end up with a litter of entirely one colour or the other, regardless of what the genetics probabilities are. What it actually means when you work out the crosses and punnet squares is working out the probability that each baby will be of each type.... so in that example, every baby stands a 50% chance of being black, and a 50% chance of being blue. However, just because Baby 1 was blue, it doesn't mean that baby 2 will be black, and so on. In a litter, you'd expect around equal numbers of boys and girls, because each baby has a 50% chance of being male, and 50% chance of being female.... but my flatmate's two girls came from a litter of 18 rats - and 17 of those rats were girls. Shocked

Now I've been rambling, and I apologise for sidetracking the thread. Embarassed

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:51 am

One to Lil Willow, u said She originally asked wat are your opinions...im a GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
two, to ur Questions i have read on www.mouse@horns.com that if u disturb the mother and babies then the mother can harm or eat the babies!!!!!!! thats y u should ive her rest fo sometime.
three, when u said mice CARRYING genetics i thought u meant diseases or somthing!!! in Australia colours are referred to as there DNA genetic code not CARRING somthing

Snagrit

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Rats r my Soul...Mice r my Heart!!! wink

Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:55 am

One thing, i am being menterd my a other breeder, i got my first mouse from him and ever since then he has been mentering me!!!! i hav a menterer and he thinks im a great breeder i hav never had a vicious mouse no Tumor (till now) and i ahv a great understandingof genetics!!!!!

Snagrit

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Rats r my Soul...Mice r my Heart!!! wink

Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:38 am

"Carrier" means that the mouse carries a recessive gene in its DNA that is not showing. Does your mentor belong to any recognized clubs, and is he known by the members of those clubs to be a reputable, good breeder?

I honestly think you need to step back from breeding. Your heart is in the right place, but you're just not there yet.

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-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:40 pm

The genetics questions I posted there were dealing with simple Dominant and Recessive genes. I know that some colors go by different names, but Blue and Black are universal in mice. They were also meant to be taken at face value - considering that there were no other common carriers other than what I listed.

I can also rephrase the questions in genetic coding, but I doubt you would be able to tell me the outcome that way either. To get a genetic coding for a specific mouse, you need to know it's colors and carriers first - which is what I gave in very simple terms.

If you do not know about simple genetics (and what I posted were simple genetic questions), you should not be breeding mice. I am not sure what kind of mentor you have, but if he has not taught you how to figure out the outcome of a simple pairing, then I don't know what good that mentor is. I highly recommend seeking out a GOOD mentor who is knowledgeable in genetics.

Also, since you insist that you know genetics, I would like some examples of your own. Let me know what you know.
What do you breed (color-wise)? How do you tell the outcome of a litter? Or, do you just put two mice together and see what the babies look like when they arrive?

About the "handling the babies" question - any good breeder will tell you that it is VITAL to handle mouse babies as soon as possible. Mice are very skittish by nature (some more than others - which are the ones you shouldn't breed from) and they need to be handled very early on to become accustomed to human scents. Every single litter born here is handled from birth - sometimes when the babies are only hours old. My females are extremely trusting of me, and allow me to do so. Not once in all of my years of breeding have I had a single mother attack or kill her litter because I handled them. That, for the most part, is a myth. The only time I would be hesitant is with a mouse I don't know well - but I have had a rescue come in pregnant and deliver a litter of 13 one week later, and I held them from day one with no problems. So, unless your mice are not used to you (or very aggressive - which should not be bred in the first place), handling them early should not be a problem at all.

While there is a lot of good information online, you have to take a lot of it with a grain of salt. Not everything is accurate, just because it is online. ANYONE can make a website about anything....that does not make them an expert on the subject they choose to write about. That is why I stress the importance of a GOOD mentor when breeding mice. There is no substitute for actual experience.

I have asked the questions I wanted answered, and you answered them. You asked us if we thought you were a good breeder, and I have given my evaluation - which is no. Not yet anyway. There is potential, but I really feel you do need to study mice a lot more before you decide to breed again. This is just my opinion - but know that it is the opinion of someone who has been breeding and raising mice for a total of 5 years. In all those years, I have not had a single case of cancer, tumors, aggression, no genetic health concerns or very skittish mice. This is because I have not only acquired my mice (pedigreed) from reputable breeders, but I have also put in the time needed to properly socialize each and every one of my mice. I know mouse (and rat) genetics well, and I have had a few mentors in my time who have helped me along. I also keep close contact with other breeders to see what is new, and to ask any questions I may have.

I highly suggest that ANYONE looking to breed mice does their homework, and finds a well established, reputable breeder who can help them along the way. And know what is involved in breeding - the time, money, planning, etc. Know what you are getting into before ever putting two mice together. It is the only responsible way to breed.

_________________
Shanna
~ Serendipity Rodentry ~

Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:18 pm

Snagrit - apologies for getting your gender wrong. wink

As I've said in other threads here, people are giving their opinons based on a question you asked. They've highlighted parts that concern them, or that they think need more work. You can choose to discuss it politely and clearly (and that means coherently providing evidence to back up your assertions rather than just saying that you disagree), you can accept their concerns and look at what you could do (if anything) to improve those areas, or you can choose to ignore their points. It's up to you which route you take.

Serendipity does raise a good point regarding information on websites - a lot of times, people will assume that because the information is on a website, it must be true. But anyone can create a website (especially these days) and to be honest, it's like opinons - everyone has one, but it doesn't necessarily make it right, accurate or based on fact. There are a lot of myths and snippets of info that are passed around as truth, when in reality they are not. I don't know much about mice, but from the rat point of view, there are still very many people that are afraid that their rat will die a horrible death if they go near them with a strep throat. There are still people that believe that a rat's pelvis fuses and so it's deadly to breed your rat for the first time after 8 months of age. They still think that chocolate is deadly to rats, or that all rats should be housed alone as adults. These things are based on misinterpretation of information or from looking at other animals and erroneously transferring the info or suggestions to rats. If you do some quick research, you will find scientific evidence to disprove all of those assertions given above. They are all false, but if they were placed on a website, particularly a professional looking one, it would be easy to believe that they were true. So do take everything you see, hear and read with a pinch of salt. Look at the supporting evidence. Ask for the supporting evidence if you're not sure where it comes from. Check out all the facts and decide for yourself after looking at both sides of the discussion.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:36 am

serendipityrodentry wrote:

About the "handling the babies" question - any good breeder will tell you that it is VITAL to handle mouse babies as soon as possible. Mice are very skittish by nature (some more than others - which are the ones you shouldn't breed from) and they need to be handled very early on to become accustomed to human scents. Every single litter born here is handled from birth - sometimes when the babies are only hours old. My females are extremely trusting of me, and allow me to do so. Not once in all of my years of breeding have I had a single mother attack or kill her litter because I handled them. That, for the most part, is a myth. The only time I would be hesitant is with a mouse I don't know well - but I have had a rescue come in pregnant and deliver a litter of 13 one week later, and I held them from day one with no problems. So, unless your mice are not used to you (or very aggressive - which should not be bred in the first place), handling them early should not be a problem at all.

While there is a lot of good information online, you have to take a lot of it with a grain of salt. Not everything is accurate, just because it is online. ANYONE can make a website about anything....that does not make them an expert on the subject they choose to write about. That is why I stress the importance of a GOOD mentor when breeding mice. There is no substitute for actual experience.
.

Ok maybe I shouldnt even be here since I am not a breeder and don't plan on breeding

, but I just figured I should state what i always here

Don't touch the mice the first day they are born as it can stress out the mother

Perhaps this pertains to more skittish mice, but its what I always read and always hear.

Then again I am not a breeder(and you are wink

) so anyone can choice to ignore me

!

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<3 to my Fats and my Meeces