RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:02 am

I don't think it would be too much protein, although that mix does have a lot of nuts and seeds in it, which are relatively high in protein and fat. How much of the cereal to the nut/fruit mix do you use?

Some rats are sensitive to things in their diet, and I'm not sure how high a quality that dog kibble is. How are the other rats? Do they have any problems? How is his fur overall?

Edit: OK, so perhaps that dog kibble isn't a great one to use. Can you choose a higher quality brand, even if it's a little higher in protein?

I try and give fresh food every day, which is a combination of most things I eat.

Sometimes scabs can be down to excessive grooming or little nips from arguments as well, so it may not be a dietary problem. Why did the vet feel it wasn't mites?

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:38 am

The other two don't have it. They aren't even itchy or anything. It's only on his jawbone and a little on his cheek. I think it may be excessive grooming.

His fur has gotten thinner over the past two weeks, but not so much that he has bald spots. I was looking just now and noticed that it looks a little thinner. I can't believe I didn't notice sooner. It's not bad, but I should have noticed. I guess I've just been preoccupied with Chester.

I usually use 2/3 cereal and 1/3 fruit/nut mix. I use to give them fresh food everyday but they had diarrea so I switched to every other day.

Would Beniful be a good kibble? That's really the only other one I was looking at. I was thinking about organic dog food, but the only kind around here that isn't ridiculously expensive, they didn't like!

I really didn't know it was that bad! I feel horrible for making my boys eat that. I'm going tonight to get them some better food. My poor babies.

He looked at him and got a few of his hairs and took them back and when he came back he said there were no mites or fleas. He isn't my regular vet but I couldn't get an appointment there until next week and I wouldn't have a ride.

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Rats:
The boys:
Chester (PEW hairless), Kye (Black mismarked hooded), Scout (agouti), Reminder (Beige)

Tapioca(Beige hooded) RIP my big squishy boy...Play hard at the Rainbow Bridge.

Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:54 am

nope, beniful is almost as bad. there really isn't anything decent you can buy at wallyworld. myself, i use chicken soup for the soul. i get it at my local feed store. it's higher in protien (about 21%) but i leave out the sunflower seeds. personally, i would rather feed a higher protien, good quality food than a crap food loaded with preservitives and chemicals and such they can't use. i use to have a "rating scale" for dog foods, something you could look at to help you choose a good quality food. i'll see if i can dig it up for you.

eta: i know dogs and rats have different nutritional needs, but a good quality food is still a good quality food!

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i miss you dove, oz, briar and fern. liam, my love, i 'll never forget you.

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:17 am

hmm...well Brandi doesn't get home till 10 and everything is closed then. I'd have to wait till her day off. They sell chicken soup stuff at superpets I think. Do you think they'll be okay for a few more days?

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Rats:
The boys:
Chester (PEW hairless), Kye (Black mismarked hooded), Scout (agouti), Reminder (Beige)

Tapioca(Beige hooded) RIP my big squishy boy...Play hard at the Rainbow Bridge.

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:17 am

here it is..... a pretty good guideline for picking a decent dog food.

Start with a grade of 100:
For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points

If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 5 points

If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer’s rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points

If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

If the food contains any animal fat, subtract 2 points

If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points

If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

If the food contains barley, add 2 points

If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "turkey" as 2 different sources; do not count eggs), add 1 point

If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D
<70 + F

This is meant as a guideline only. If your dog is currently on a food that meets his or her needs, then that's the important thing! But if you're looking for a change, this gives a way of evaluating different foods on the same scale. And, some of these criteria are based on allergens (wheat, corn, and soy); if your dog is not allergic to these items, you don't have to consider that criterion. i believe corn should still remain a factor even if your dog does not have allergies to it, however, because corn is not digestible to any animal and is really nothing but a cheap filler. But if your dog has no allergies to corn (skin problems, foot licking or biting, hot spots can be signs of grain allergy), then feel free to reduce the impact of that ingredient.

Here's how some major popular foods rated:

Eagle Pack Holistic: 119
Wellness Super5Mix Chicken: 117
Chicken Soup for the Adult Dog Lover's Soul: 109
Canidae: 100
Eagle Pack Natural: 94
Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed Puppy: 94
Flint River Ranch: 92 (non-specific fat source)
Nutro Chicken, Rice, & Oatmeal: 85 (non-specific fat source)
Eukanuba Large Breed Adult: 83
Iams Large Breed: 83
Science Diet Large Breed: 68
Pro Plan All Breed: 68
Pedigree Complete Nutrition: 42

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i miss you dove, oz, briar and fern. liam, my love, i 'll never forget you.

Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:56 am

If the vet only took hairs, then that's unlikely to show up mites - you would probably need to do a skin scraping and even that can give false negatives. It might be worth looking into again, just to be sure.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:13 pm

I was going to originally put this in the health/care/behavior section itself, rather than the sticky, but I just read WolvesRaven's post about scabs on the chin which sound very similar to what I just noticed on Bike last night. (If it needs to be moved, I apologize) He has a semi-large scab under his chin, with a triangular patch of shortened or missing fur, and two smaller scabs - one above and one below.

I have him on Mazuri lab blocks along with fruits and veggies (I've recently been looking into making a batch of Suebees). Are protein scabs typically found on the chin? Or does it seem more characteristic of mites? Is it something I can put neosporin on and monitor? Or should I make an appointment to the vet right away?

Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:54 pm

Either... scabs are basically where the skin has broken from scratching in both cases, and often they will be seen in greater number around the chin, head and neck. However, I'd get the vet to check him out for mites first and foremost as mites are probably more common than diet sensitivities. It's not a "must check immediately" kind of thing, but it is something to get a non-urgent appointment for. Have you noticed him itching more than usual?

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:01 pm

No. Same amount of scratching. I'll watch him more closely today, as I had to work yesterday and last night was when I noticed it. I tried to see if he was scratching more under his chin as well, but he didn't seem to be. Oh little boy - there goes this week's paycheck. LOL

Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:38 pm

Just for some more information on BHA and BHT, check these links:

http://diet-studies.com/stokes.html
http://www.feingold.org/bht.html
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Antioxidants/BHA-BHT.htm

I have also, from reading, seen references to foods that use BHA/BHT being linked to hotspots in dogs (although much of that is anecdotal reporting and technically could be associated with other problems such as lower quality food etc).

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:12 am

Has anyone tried Hill's Science Diet Senior dog food for their ratties? Thats what I give my ratties as part of their diet, and was wondering if its a good food for them. The protein is 16%

Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:07 pm

have any of you tried giving dried cat food as treats to your rats. I recieved two sample packages of Nutro gourmet dried cat food (chicken flavored! (no biproducts)), and I gave one pack to my cats and decieded i would see it my rats would like them. Well, they did! They beg and they love them wayyyy more than yoggies, and peanuts, which was their favorite for quite a while!
Since they have been getting Nutro a few times a day, I have notice that their fur is softer, and looks more healthy. I looked on the bag, and It says it helps the cats coat too! Nutro is a very healthy pet food supplier, and well, I wsa just wondering if any one else gives cat food to their rats?

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Momma to...

4 rats~ Hoodsie, Lucy, Acadecki, and Linyaari
2 cats~ Tubby Todd and Na'Bisco
2 leopard geckos~ Luka and Jaffa
1 hammy~ Bijou

Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:00 pm

Is candy corn good as a sometimes-treat? I have two bagfulls of the stuff, the regular kind, the chocolate flavored ones and the little pumpkins. I don't think they're any different nutritionally.

Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:12 pm

Candy corn is pretty much just sugar. You can give it to them but I would only do so in small pieces and not more than once a week. It's just junk, but ratties love junk. Mr. Green

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Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:25 am

Wow! I made it through all 24 pages. WooHoo!

<----- Heh, love this little guy!

I gotta say, most of your rats eat better than I do! I'm going to have to improve my diet just to feed my rat healthy stuff! This is a good thing, lol.

I have a few questions.

1) Dog food vs. lab blocks. From reading this thread, it seems that dog food alone is too high in protien, and needs to be mixed 50/50 with Suebees mix or equivalent for proper nutrition. Lab blocks however are complete and balanced by themselvs. Suebees site(and many of the members here) say "Either dog food or lab blocks mixed 50/50 with Suebees mix."
-so-
If Suebees mix "dilutes" the dog food down to healthy protien levels, then wouldn't lab blocks(which start out already balanced) get "diluted" down as well, and end up not providing enough protien? ScratchHead

Just curious.

2) I'm thinking that a good quality lab block, plus daily treats/fresh stuff, sounds like an easy and healthy way to go. Yes? If I go this route, is there an item or two from the Suebee mix that would really help round out the blocks, like the Total cereal for the vitamins?

3)Quantity. I can't quite get a feel for how much food this little fur person can eat. I worry that if I give her too many treats, she'll be too full to eat her "regular" food. Example, for breakfast I'll give her a 1" x 1" corner of bread with penutbutter and honey on it. Yum

Is she done for half the day? Or will she get the munchies in an hour, and be downstairs nibbling on a lab block? She loves yogurt! I peel the lid off on of those little 8oz containers and give that to her *lick lick lick lick lick* maybe half a teaspoon on it. Is that dinner, or just a light snack? Except for the yogurt lids, she usually runs off and hides to eat.So I can't tell if she eats it all, or stashes some.

Last thing, there are two brand names I'd like to toss out here. I haven't heard them mentioned, and I'm curious of peoples opinions on them. The first is Zupreem lab blocks. That is what I have now, my freind is going to bring me the nutritional info and I'll post it up when I get it. If at all questionable, I'll get the Harlan blocks.
The other one is the food that Rita rat came with, what I have been feeding her(plus other stuff, including Innova). It's Volkmans Rat & Mouse Menu. A picture and contents list can be found here---->http://www.arcatapet.com/item.cfm?cat=9072 I'm not planning on using it anymore, just wondered if it was any better than the usual "rodent mixes" that get a bad rap on here.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for helping out a rattie noob. Mr. Green

Dave and Rita rat

P.S. Rita was an abandoned rat, and full grown when I got her 5 months ago. She has put on a touch of weight in that time, and is is now just a little bit squishy, but not much.

Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:27 am

Congratulations on making it through! Mr. Green

We do try and keep the stickies trimmed but they keep growing. We are working on it though. wink

1) Good point! As you pointed out, the main problem with the dog kibble is that, alone, it has too much protein (and so throws out the balance of other nutrients as well). Originally, Suebee's was designed as an alternative for people who couldn't get hold of good lab blocks but provided a better alternative to store bought grain mixes alone. Later, people began substituting lab blocks into the grain mix because it was the "best of both worlds" in that the lab blocks ensured that the rats got access to all the nutrients they needed, but had some variety in taste and texture rather than a homogenous lab block (although they should have fresh food, this isn't usually available all day).

So yes, technically the protein will be lower, but it shouldn't ever be low enough to cause harm. Rats need around 12-15% protein in their daily diet (though more is recommended during growth, pregnancy, nursing etc), and most of the lab blocks contain more than this. The two most common blocks from Harlan, for example, contain 24% or 18% - so these, even when combined with the grain, will still provide enough protein for most rats, and it's also easy enough to offer some higher protein/energy foods for rats that need more for whatever reason. By keeping protein levels around that figure, you minimise the chance of protein sensitivity, but the protein levels are still consistant with good health levels.

2) Going with 80% lab blocks and 20% fresh foods (or 80/20 Suebee's/Fresh) is generally the recommended ratio - and yes, it's perfectly fine to give good quality lab blocks without the grain mix. It's a personal (and rat) choice as some rats don't like lab blocks, some people prefer to offer a variety of things to eat rather than the same thing consistantly. But if you want to use lab blocks alone, with fresh suppliments, then that's ok as long as you're using a good lab block (such as the Harlan, Oxbow or Mazuri blocks). The blocks should provide all of the nutrients that the rat will need, so you shouldn't have to give anything specifically from the Suebee's mix to ensure they have a good diet. You can, of course, offer anything from the mix as a treat or occasional suppliment. Things like a bit of cereal often goes down well, mixed up oatmeal is a firm favourite and also helps put on some weight if you need extra for a particular rat, and the dry pasta is great for keeping teeth trimmed. So nothing specifically is necessary - but if you want to regularly offer any of it, perhaps just take it in turns to offer different things. With things that are highly vitamin supplimented, you may want to consider just offering the odd flake or two as a treat to make sure you don't overdo the vitamins (some are toxic at too high a dose).

3) How much do they eat? Well, a rat needs around 5g of food for every 100g of body weight. So your Rita is probably somewhere between 300 and 400g (maybe a little more - and a bit of squish is ok, though too much has the same risks as with humans wink

). That would mean she probably needs something like 20g of food a day. But in all honesty, I don't weigh it out for mine, and I don't think most people do. Most people tend to free feed their staple (be it Suebee's or lab blocks etc) and give them a meal or two of fresh stuff. It tends to be a case of trial and error to work out how much they eat in a day, and try to provide just that amount. That way, they always have fresh mix in their bowl every day. As long as you try and make it so that she's getting 4 parts blocks/mix and 1 part fresh food, then that's fine.

The peanut butter - keep as a treat, much as she loves it (especially with bread and honey!) it's very fatty. I think that giving her that should really count as her "rare treat" and then the rest of the fresh stuff you give her (which can include the yoghurt, preferably live and natural) is healthy goodness like fruit, veg, etc, then she'll be fine.

Re: those brands. Zupreem blocks - These aren't, I don't think, designed for rats specifically. I know they do reptile, ferret, exotic cats, primates etc. (see here) but alone I don't know that they're recommended. I know some people will use the bird products in a home made mix though. So if you're going for a block/fresh combo, I'd say Harlan is probably better, but I can't say for sure.

The Volkmans, just from looking at it, I'd say is all wrong - it looks like half of it is sunflower seeds and dried corn, and so I'd say no to that. Looks like there's perhaps peanuts as well?

There are some shop grain mixes that aren't so bad (I can think of a couple that are ok to use as long as they're not the sole food from a UK perspective) but many of them are inappropriate (such as seeds and nuts, too high in protein and fat), contain too much dried corn (not a great source of nutrition as the main component, and potentially harmful according to some research), contain small seeds and/or alfalfa pellets which are generally left behind (so the mix is wasteful) - when I've used mixes in the past, I've always found that I had to throw away around 20-25% of the bowl because it was small seeds and alfalfa pellets that they refused to eat. In addition, some of the mixes are coloured or have a number of preservatives or additives that may cause sensitivities (one of mine itched like crazy from colourants) and it's basically like living on junk food or ready meals - it'll keep you going, but the fat, salt, additives and so on just won't be good for you long term.

Hope that helps.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:59 am

Went shopping last night for all the ingredients for a rat food mix for when I get my newbies on Sunday. I had always previously fed the bog stock rat food from pet shops but this time I want to do the proper mix of oats, pasta, cereral etc etc. The list I have got says use Alpha Herbal rabbit food, but Pets At Home don't stock it - argh! My list also says I can use PaH Rat Museli as a substitute, but in the past my girls always picked out bits and left loads, including the "kibbly" biscuit bits.

I wasn't sure whether to buy any old other rabbit food as a substitute, as I don't know what the protein levels should be. Is PaH standard rabbit mix OK to use? It has 13% protein count. If it's OK to use this or the Rat Museli then I'm gathering there will be no need to add the extra dog kibble for more protein?

Also is it OK to use standard breakfast museli in the mix too?

And finally why don't PaH put the same ingredients into their rat food as they do their rabbit food, if the rabbit food is ultimately the best thing for them!!!

Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:40 pm

You have to be careful with the rabbit foods - if you can't find the Alpha herbal locally, I believe you can order it online if you can't find it locally - maybe try independent pet stores? Alison from Shunamite Rats may be able to help you more, if you contact her about alternatives that aren't on the list. The rat muesli is suggested as an alternative though, so should be ok to use instead of it. You could also add part muesli and part nuggets...

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:12 pm

Someone said that the muselie may have too much sugar but I'm sure it'd be OK added sparingly?

Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:24 pm

OK - rat muesli (as in, the P@H mix) is fine to use. Human muesli can be high in sugar indeed, and so you may want to add less of it compared to other cereals, or to search out a variety with low sugar, or no added sugar. Basically, find the things that are as low as possible in sugar and salt and processing. I've found Kashi in the UK (original, not honey, is best), Cheerios are firm favourites but have a surprising amount of sugar and salt so I normally limit those, and if you go to somewhere like a big supermarket or Holland & Barrett or Julian Greaves, you can find all the makings of muesli (like oats, nuts, dried fruit etc) and add them separately, or pick up one of their natural no added sugar type things.

Look for things like the wheat flakes, shredded wheat (you can either break up big ones, or just get the mini ones), puffed rice (not rice crispies - they're made from rice flour and lots of added sugar and salt), and so on.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:12 am

I use Bob's Red Mills Museli, which is human muesli, but it does not add extra sugar.
Is it okay?

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Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:18 am

Should be fine.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:21 am

Is dried pasta ok for rats Confused

peapod

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:25 am

Well i know my Ratties luv cooked pasta with a little sauce....smile

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Rosie Ginger Gypsy Bambie Beatrice Cassie Kira Shapelle Shelley kath Kim Corby Chloe kimmies bubs: Leelee Lilly Molly Morgan Jassie Jayjay Tess n Tammy
Roxy 30/06/2004 to 28/11/2005 Relaxing on the banks of the river at Rainbow Bridge

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:30 am

Considering dry pasta is in Suebee's mix, I think that it's fine. wink

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Last edited by amazing_rat on Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total