RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:01 am

I had thought that once I'd got a good pic, I'd know. But I'm still not sure! Banghead

The pix really aren't that good, but you just try taking one of a mouse ass running away from you. Rolling Eyes

Thimble's bits 1:

Thimble's bits 2:

Thimble's bits 3 (side view):

(Check out those lug soles, LOL!)

Female (left) & Male (right) Deer Mouse bits:
http://www.spiritdancers.org/rilla/dmfvm.htm
I can't bring myself to hotlink those pix here, even though I'm desperate for a side-by-side comparison.

Please help me decide! Thanks!

Ooh, I've just decided to make this a poll. I've voted "I just don't know", but maybe with y'all's help, that can change!

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:40 pm

On balance, I think Thimble's bits look more like the girly mouse pics in the link. So I have thrown caution to the winds and gone for female. I might have been more cautious, mind you, if I thought there was any danger of him/her breeding with your two girls. Shocked

I wonder why deermice don't have huge nads like wood mice do. They look so similar otherwise. (Or maybe Charlie is just deformed).

_________________
Linda and the RMDs

Many have forgotten this truth but you must not forget it. We remain responsible forever, for what we have tamed.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery.

Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:17 am

Wow, it's so difficult to see a difference in mice gender, nothing like rats! But after studying all the pictures, I'm thinking Thimble's bits look more male to me.

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~Briana~

The ladies and the Lads

Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:45 am

Thimble's picture #1 male
Thimble's picture #2 female

does that help at all?

Honestly, I keep changing my mind. I do think that his/her 2 pictures do not look like they came from the same mouse.

_________________
paisley

Spike, Diamond, Elphaba, Rose, Octavia, A Cappella, & Nocturne

the cats: Trip & Phlox

the rabbit: Ripley

Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:58 am

it's a she. i think. i am used to sexing ratties, and have not had any practice at all with mousies, but that little spot under (in the pic it is over) her wee-wee nub looks like the female access panel. ( i can't even type anything but G-rated... i am hopeless) i never base it on if it looks like there are boy toys or even how far the two trash compactors are apart. but you can usually tell (with rats anyway) by if there is smooth skin or not under (or rather after) the nub.

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Visit ACE, MELANIE, BONBON, and the rest of my crew in Rat Tails

Last edited by angelratgirl on Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:54 am; edited 2 times in total

Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:01 am

In my experience the distance between the penis and anus is further apart, than the distance between the vagina and anus. Usually if you have a male and female side by side you would certainally be able to tell the difference. The pictures in the link did not really show this off all that well, but I did notice that his parts in general were slightly bigger than that of the female.
I reckon Thimble is a boy, but then I could be wrong! wink

OOh just thought, have you noticed any nipples?

_________________
~Lisa & Ratties~
~Holly,Misty,Snowy,Honey,Suzie,Daisy,Cherub,Jasmin,Pipa, Sasha & Lilly~
~Alfie,BeeJay,Jerry & Charlie~

~Gone But Not Forgotten~
~Rosie~

Rats~ You Can Never Have Too Many!

Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:21 am

Wow, that is tough. the spacing suggests males, though not to an extreme. However, the "access panel", as angelratgirl put it, does look female. I'm going with butch female.

Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:28 am

Leave it to Kate to trash our mouse forum with mouse porn! :laugh:

_________________
Christy
RP Admin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frodo, Zorro, Erzulie, Maeve, Clara, Molly & Emily

Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:56 am

I leaned toward male, Both the pictures that are supposed to tell you the difference, Well they looked the same to me. Maybe a little swelling in the guy picture. So I went for male.I dunno
wtf

_________________
Tabby
My Friends that have crossed to the bridge
~Lilo,Stitchy,Pleakly,JumJum,Ohana~
And the family hamster ~Scrump~

Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:37 am

I really should have posted that the mouse site said something like 1 cm between female gennie & butt, 3 cm between male gennie & butt. But I am not about to chase Thimble around with a tape measure! Mr. Green

Also, to make it even more confusing, I saw no evidence of Thimble's bit AT ALL until the new girls showed up, then suddenly there it was, sticking out, forward! I thought: How odd, that's the biggest strawberry I've ever seen on a girl critter! At the time I didn't know about the nad-free policy of male deer mice, so I still thought he was a girl. The she seemed to retract it after a while or something, cos it basically disappeared, at least back to what you see in the pix.

Now tell me, if you were a guy and saw two women who immediately terrified you, would you get an erection? Nooooo. (Well, to each his own, but...) So I assumed he was a girl. Then I found out about the secret nads.

So yeah, distance-wise, she looks like she could be a guy, but equipment-wise (excepting that one display on the day of the girlie invasion), he looks like he could be a girl.

BUT. Once thing I noticed from the pix I linked to (and if you hit the "Back to Sexing Mice" link at the top of that page you'll see TONS more similar): Thimble does not have that weird hole between the gennies and the ass. I assume that is the nad storage area, and there's a hole there in case they ever need to come out?? *shudder to think they could fit through that if they're anywhere near the size of Charlie's!* In the female, that area seems to be taken up by the ... what did angelratgirl call it? the "female access panel". roflmao

As for nips, nope, can't see any, but that's because s/he doesn't stay still long enough in a belly view for me to get a good long look.

I think I give up! Good thing "Thimble" is a generic name. I had named her that cos he could have just about fit in one when I got her, but now his head is bigger than Yoli's butt! Mr. Green

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:40 am

Yep, I'm convinced. It's is definitely a male or female! Mr. Green

_________________
~~Wiley's(& Simon's ) Mom & The Lil Rattie Crew
Don't count how many breaths you take
But what takes your breath away~
~Sir Wiley William Templeton
2/29/00-3/5/03 My light, my love forever~
Gentleman Jack 1/1/01-4/22/03
Quiet courage, my heart~

Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:50 am

okay. i am stumped. i am just gonna go back to what i know. rats.

thanks a whole lot for the mousie porn. and for asking everyone to look. geeze... you think you've found a family forum and then you get this...

well, i don't want to know about mice, now. tooo many wierd parts. besides, i am stuck on rats.

_________________

Visit ACE, MELANIE, BONBON, and the rest of my crew in Rat Tails

Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:52 am

	angelratgirl wrote:
	thanks a whole lot for the mousie porn. ... well, i don't want to know about mice, now. tooo many wierd parts.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:47 pm

Hmmmmmm the way I see it, you have one of two choices, put thimble in with the boyz and you run the risk of having One unplanned litter, Or you could but thimble in with the girls and risk having multiple unplanned litters.. If it were me, I think I would stick little thimble in with the boyz.. and be eyeful for any boogieing going on .. heehee.

_________________
Kimberly, rattie mommy to:
Tuff Rat, Baby Bruce , Leo, Junior, Frank and FLASH
Ratties in Heaven: Dreidel and Dippy
I shall call him Squishy, and he shall be mine, and he shall be my Squishy. ~ Dory (Finding Nemo)

Wed Jan 14, 2004 9:43 pm

Hmm - my gut instinct is girl, but I wouldn't be sure unless I could grab Thimble and have a good look!!!

If unexpected babies is a real worry then it might be worth deeply offending poor Thimble and scruffing her to take a closer look. In my experience when you get wild rodents in the hand it is far easier to spot the difference than from pics alone. If you have her in the hand and it's still confusing, you can very gently place a finger either side of his/her 'strawberry' (that term cracks me up every time!!!!) and apply a slight upwards pressure. In many male small mammals this will evert the end of the penis (no tactful way to put it, so I'll stick to being technical!) - obviously in females nothing will happen at all Mr. Green

Another clue is that although many male rodents only have very visible torpedos when they are in breeding mode, it is often possible to see little wrinkly areas of skin below the tail where the torpedoes protrude in the breeding season. I guess you can look to see if Thimble has a wrinkly bottom wink

Poor Thimble - if she only knew......!

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xx nic & ratties xx

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:34 pm

I have only 2 pet shop girls, plus Thimble in the same cage, and Thimble is a deer mouse, so they can't breed. *whew*

Nic, Thimble would dearly love to bite me, so I'm never going to pick her up! He got really offended the other day while I was cleaning the cage and had to move their tree house (with them in it) to the carrier. I put on gardening gloves and covered the tree house "windows" with my hands, and from within I felt *bump* *bump* against my palm and heard "Yip!" "Yip!" as Thimble attacked The Big Hand. She almost always sort of gives that high-pitched bark when going for my finger, and narrows his eyes. But I frustrate her by putting just the end of my finger almost through the cage wire and letting it stay there calmly after the first bark & bite, cos he can only reach my fingernail, which she chews for a few moments, then gives up on. It's the only thing I can think of to do to show him that he's not scaring me (which she often is, though!) and that the finger is not a threat.

Besides, there is no way I could possibly catch her by hand. Just watching him levitate and teleport all over the cage makes me dizzy and giggly!

As for Thimble having a wrinkly bottom, nope. I mean, it's fairly smooth, but fuzzy. I guess since they can't breed I shouldn't worry so much about this, but it's just a burning desire to know.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:50 pm

I can confirm... It's definately a MOUSE!!! roflmao

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:06 am

Nic, I just thought of something. You've had lots of wild rodents in the hand. Would you advise my trying to catch and hold Thimble? I doubt it's possible, but I could give it a shot. There's no hanta since the mice have been living in the cafe kitchen for years and we're all still alive, so the worst (I hope) I could get is a bite. I wonder how badly a deer mouse can bite, not to mention that he could just chew away on me while I was trying to examine her. There's no way I could catch him with my gloves on, they simply don't provide the dexterity.

The only other thing I think I have to worry about is Lyme Disease, and since I have a yearly full physical coming up in a couple weeks, I'm going to ask them to draw blood for that, too. I'm just hoping that since Thimble arrived during one of the coldest spells we've had in years, ticks were not an issue.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:45 am

Kate, you have GOT to stop talking in mixed pronouns when you talk about Thimble. At first, I thought I was going crazy!

I agree with Ratz - it's a mouse.

_________________
kmw

"...And that's be you, be what you're like, be like yourself..." - TMBG "Whistling in the Dark"

Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:54 am

I can't call him an it, she'll get hurt feelings. Mr. Green

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 am

Does Thimble have nipples? Thats often a good way to tell if unsure in younger domestic mice, also the distance between urethra and anus. Im voting girl or maybe boy....Ill just have another look.

Monique

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The world would be a happier place if there were no mirrors.

Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:48 pm

Hmm - catch the Thimble..... sounds like a fun game:D

The best way to catch her would depend on how big an area you could confine her to, i.e. it would obviously be very difficult to grab her whilst she's ricocheting (sp?) around an entire tank!

The easiest way to do it would probably be to isolate her in a nest box or something, and then go from there. In the field, to get a mouse out of a live-trap, I would hold a large clear plastic or fine mesh bag over the trap entrance and then gently tip the mouse into the bag. If you got her trapped in a box you could put the whole box into the bag, open the box and once she's out hold the bag closed behind her to take the box out.

Once said mouse is in bag things become easier! What you then need to do is manouevre her so her head is facing into a corner of the bag (usually not as hard as it sounds!) and gently hold her there; this should then allow you to get a grip on the scruff of her neck through the bag. To scruff her, you need to pick up a decent amount of loose skin between the ball of your thumb and the side of the middle of your forefinger. Too little scruff and she'll may turn round and nip you but too much and she'll have problems breathing! The advantage of scruffing through the bag is that if you don't get it exactly right first time you just can let go and start again without mousie disappearing into the distance

Once you have a safe grip on her scruff, you can then open the bag up and get a good view of her belly and the bits in question!

PS obviously if using a plastic bag make sure there is a little air hole in each corner!!!

PPS if you do manage to scruff her and things still aren't obvious, a good way of spotting nipples in a non-breeding female is to gently blow on the fur; this seems to find any natural partings in the fur, and makes it easier to locate nipples than trying to move the fur with a giant human finger!

Enough esoteric mouse handling advice for you yet? wink

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xx nic & ratties xx

Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:42 am

I think Thimble is...BOTH! Maybe you need to move to S.F. lol.*ducking* Really after a while they all looked the same gender. Once a woman asked if Greg was pregnant.

I wonder how he didn't get bumbleballs. I noticed Josh's nipples first by the small abscence of fur where they were, so maybe if there are tiny bald spots those are nipples? Shrug

_________________
Sandra, Murray, Issabella, Cheesabella, Rowena, and Josh the Watchcat, In loving memory of MJP(Love you, Mom!) and my Angelrats:
Angel rat

Simon, Braford, Duncan, Shamrock, Blackjack, Ziggy, and Gregory Angel rat

Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:33 am

LOL @ Sandra

Nic, that is sounding too adventurous for me! But it's also sounding like I might have to do it if I really want to know. It's just that afterwards, I'm sure Thimble will hate me to pieces and gang up with Crazy and eat my eyeballs one night or something.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:42 pm

	Kate wrote:
	I'm sure Thimble will hate me to pieces and gang up with Crazy and eat my eyeballs one night or something.

LOL! Another idea: maybe a wildlife rehabilitator or nature center person would know or check so Thimble doesn't hate you. I'm not sure if there are any that rehab your species of mouse but you might find a mouse lover who knows-if not a rehabber maybe their vet. If you want to go that far. If you find out let us know! wink

_________________
Sandra, Murray, Issabella, Cheesabella, Rowena, and Josh the Watchcat, In loving memory of MJP(Love you, Mom!) and my Angelrats:
Angel rat

Simon, Braford, Duncan, Shamrock, Blackjack, Ziggy, and Gregory Angel rat