RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:15 pm

I've recently contacted a breeder in my city, which is exciting because I thought there werent any...

She seems very nice and eager to answer my questions, she told me where she got her newest cage which is exactly what I was looking for and shes been sending me pictures and updates on the new babies even though its not for sure if I'll be taking one from her or not. I get a good vibe from her.

She made it clear that she breeds for health...but she also said she believes in nuture over nature. She won't breed aggressive rats, but she did breed a rat that was friendly but skittish...I'm just wondering what the opinion on this is from some other breeders. Do you believe that nurture can overtake nature in some cases?

We did talk about letting me come to see her rats, but she wants to wait until the babies have their eyes open until she lets people in to see them. So I might be able to meet her rats and judge for myself...

But I'm really interested in this...I'm a sociology student and Nature VS Nurture is an endless debate, so I was just wondering what the other breeders out there think...

Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:33 pm

I don't breed, but based on my experiences and discussions with others *I* believe that both play parts in the development of a baby rat, or rather CAN, but Nurture is definately the biggest deciding factor (if you take out someone breeding a tumor ridden, biting rat, and are just going with a skittish rat). Nature vs. Nurture is ..well its really obvious in a rat.
Part genetics, sure, but it might be a negative thing to breed a skittish rat because skittish begets skittish in a few cases. A mother rat might transfer that hesitancy to her pups, not through some genetic strand of 'skittish' genes, but just considering she might be aversive to going out and saying hello to the breeder.
With human children, the greatest way of learning is repetition consistancy, and what the parents model. If the mother rat models a fear of humans, its possible her babies might see that and act on it, or maybe be less friendly than a loving smooshy outgoing girl and her babies if bred at the same time.
But then, there are many ways you might get around that. Handling them from their first day of birth. Getting them all used to your voice and your hands. Those babies will be nurtured away from the impressions their mother might leave on them, even if the mother remains skittish.

I think the way babies are nurtured has a lot to do with how they turn out. It's not an exact science, but typically *well* bred babies are nicer than the average scared, frightened rat that is meant to nourish a snake.

but then THAT is also taking into consideration that *good* breeders breed their lines from already proven healthy, proven nice, proven friendly rats and petstore rats are just rats thrown together willy nilly (which brings lines and genetics into play). Petstore rats, if got young enough, can be nurtured away from the fear and torment that comes with being overcrowded, underfed, on bad bedding and without enough water to go around, coupled with a high likelihood of bad lines and breeding. On the same token, a perfectly sweet breeder bred baby can be tormented with the same things into being afraid and un-trusting of humans.

So...throughout all this, I guess it is more nurture than nature - to a degree. A biting rat shouldn't be bred. She might have a mental disorder that isn't a 'health' problem because its not a giant tumor or a bad heart. Those mental problems can be genetic. A skittish rat probably doesn't have a mental disorder, she's probably just..skittish...so. In that case I think it is definately nurture over nature.

As long as she's not a biter, I think if her babies are properly handled, fed, loved, smooshed and are nurtured, they will provide perfectly wonderful pets. On the same token, if they are abused, thrown around, not fed and not watered, they will likely be very unfit pets.

just my two and a half cents wink

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:46 pm

There's a difference between personality and temperament I think.... and that differentiates between nature and nurture. The temperament is determined by genetics and hormones - it's their tendency to be laid back, friendly, loving, snuggly, active, manic, crazy, have no fear of new experiences, aggressive, defensive of their cage etc. Personality of the individual rat, though, comes with nurture, although it's based on their temperament.

A rat, with loads of handling and socialisation, will learn to trust and bond with humans (either those specific humans, or humans in general - depending on their temperament, and how many people they are exposed to as they grow). It learns to overcome it's natural fear of humans, to enjoy being scritched, and starts to look on it's human as being a big hairless rat that doesn't quite speak the language, and is a bit dumb, but is harmless and brings food and yoggies. A rat, however, that isn't handled at all, will be skittish, fearful, untrusting and defensive - it won't know that humans aren't going to hurt it, and then you have to spend the time working with them. That's the nurture aspect. However, a rat is naturally afraid of human contact to a greater or lesser extent and by handling them daily from birth, you can reassure them that humans are ok. But if you don't handle them, they won't have that trust. That's the nature aspect and that's what good breeding looks to work with.

Over the years, good breeders have tried to select the most docile and friendly rats, the ones that aren't skittish, fearful or aggressive - because they make the most handleable pets. By repeatedly selecting those kinds of rats (who, in nature, would probably be at a disadvantage) you change the base temperament of the breeding group of pet rats. However, you can't breed out all temperament issues - many breeders have found that aggression is difficult or impossible to breed out, and skittishness is also sometimes difficult to resolve. Because of this, it's generally accepted that, where possible, you don't breed from aggressive or overly skittish rats, because it can be hard to predict if it will pass onto the babies, and it can be impossible to breed out - and no-one would like to put years of work into a line and then find that it's been ruined, or that they have to stop breeding.

Taken to extremes, you can end up with a situation similar to the siamese situation. Siamese rats first appeared in a small number of rats, and people because so besotted by the siamese markings that they bred and bred hard to try and improve them (from what I know, the original siamese markings were really not strong or good compared with today's siamese markings). However, in their constant breeding to improve the markings, many breeders neglected to consider temperament in the process (not all, by any stretch of the imagination, and this was a while ago now). The result was that many lines of siamese rats had terrible aggression issues - and it's still a problem with some siamese lines now. The good breeders, of course, have worked really hard to continue improving siamese lines and have worked their backsides off to resolve the aggression issues that have haunted the siamese lines. Of course - some people believed that the siamese genes themselves caused the aggresion, in a similar way to how high white markings in the US can cause megacolon - but that definitely isn't the case. It was just down to breeding hard for appearance, regardless of temperament.

Now mild skittishness - that's not the same as breeding an all out biter that will take chunks out of you and any cagemate constantly.... some people may breed rats that are slightly skittish, particularly if they have some aspect that makes them really special. And a skittish rat that is given a great start and constant socialisation from kittenhood will likely be much happier around humans and other rats (depending on what kind of skittish she is) than one that is socialised less, or not at all.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:19 am

Can you find out how many generations her rats pedigrees go back for me?

Thanks.

Lise

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Lise...

& Molly, Nora, and Tevy

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:09 am

I meant to get to this sooner but I see that good points have already been brought up. I thought I would share my own experiences since my thoughts differ a little from the above posts. I believe that a rat is made up of both his nature and the nurturing he recieved after birth. I do think that you must have the best of both to have a really good rattie. I have been rescuing and breeding rats for a few years now and I have learned many things. One of my biggest lessons was when I once had 2 litters born the exact same day. One litter was from a rescue mom with unknown father and the other was a well planned breeding between two excellent parents. The rescue doe was skiddish- not biting, nippy or unholdable but was definately not a well socialized trusting girl. She did let me mess with her babies though which I was thankful for. With her skiddish temperament and unknown background I instantly knew I was going to have play and hold this rescue litter for far longer than my planned litter. Within the 4th week I could see the difference between the litters - despite all my attention and extra care, the rescue litter babies were still skiddish like thier mom. Meanwhile the planned litter, with little interaction, was really sweet and calm like the parents. By weaning and adoption day, the rescue litter was no better socialized than from day 1. I carefully placed this litter as a special needs rescue litter and kept in touch with the adoptors. Even at 1 yr some owners still had trust and socialization issues with their rats.
So for me, the bottom line here is that it has to begin at the genes and end with the socialization. Breeders need to only breed from sweet well temperamented rats to ensure that the good temperament will be there. They then need to provide the outside stimulation of socialization to ensure that they stay or grow even more social. After my own experiences and after seeing cases such as mine elsewhere, I will never breed a skiddish rat ( mother OR father ). I hope this gives you another side to consider.
Amy

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Phoenix Gate Rats
www.pxrats.com

Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:56 am

Amy - actually, personally I agree with you - that it's probably not a good choice to breed from skittish rats in most cases and that it's partially nature, partially nurture. But, saying that, not all skittish rats make unbearable pets... I probably should have clarified more in my post that what I meant was that a supersocialised, slightly skittish rat may well make a good pet compared with a skittish rat who doesn't get that degree of socialisation... but personally I would rather that they didn't have that genetic skittish basis to start with. wink

Sorry if that wasn't clear originally.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:13 am

I have to completely agree.. Some may have seen my remarks about my "wild" rats. First time rat owner, although owner of big hairy dogs and cats and mice in the past, I had seen my friends with these gentle tame, although fast, rats.. So Bee thought "ooooh. now there's a pet.. i didn't get far with mice, and your dog can't sit on your shoulder.. I'll get a rat" So off I trot to my local garden centre.. And I see these lovely rats.. One is all coffee coloured, and the other is a kind of milky colour.. so I decide on them.. Have names picked out and everything. I changed the names later, as I though Mocha and Latte were a bit cheesy for the oh so cool me!!! (yeah right!)

Anyway, the guy in the store puts his hand in to have a look at one and show me.. and it bites him. So I think. OOh won't get that one.. No, I don't think, if he's like it, they all will be.. Neither do I think "I don't have ANY experience with rats. Will I be scared that they'll bite my fingers off?!" (Not at this point any way..) So I ask when they're available, but apparently they're too young to be taken home yet (Not sure why that was..).. Which is perfect for me as I'm off to Wales for 10 days.. My return coincides with the day they're available for release! I go and buy them a fantastic cage, loads of toys, food, treats. And then go and get my rats. As I leave, I'm told not to handle them for a few days, and to let them settle in. Which I do.

Already, after I've put the cage together, and wired it (as they're so small they'd go through the gaps..) and try to out them in, I'm thinking.. Oh S*** what have I let myself in for. Their teeth are all over my fingers.. and it doesn't seem to be in that familiar curious way I have since learned from my *nice* rats.. So in the cage they go.. I talk to them frequently. Three days pass. I sit in front of the cage with my book for four hours. Do they come out? No.. After a few days of this pattern, Maggie finally ventures forth. To take a chunk out of my toe. I squeak. She runs and hides.. Eventually, the two of them start to venture out. But if my hand moves, a re-enaction of a leopard pouncing on innocent prey takes place. Pounce. One of them has my finger. Or my arm. Or something. I can't pick them up to put them back in their cage. So I have to leave them.. or co-erce them. Neither works. I don welding gloves and make a grab for it. They bite through welding gloves. It hurts. I came to a conclusion after about 5 months of this routine. *I have nasty rats..*

When I asked the store if they had been handled over the 10 days I was away, they said no. That angered me. If I hadn't "reserved" them, they would have been handled. But clearly, from the first time I saw them, they were unused to human contact. It should've rung HUGE alarm bells. But like I said.. first time buyer.

I often blame myself for the way they are now. I can't have them out for any kind of free range time. I have to console myself with the fact that they have a nice cage (even though I feel they don't deserve it, I know that part of the reason they are who they are is down to lack of human contact at a young age) and plenty of room to climb and play. I talk to them constantly, and try occassionally when I am feeling brave, to handle them. I always get bitten, but to be honest I'm less afraid of the bites now, I've had so many the novelty is wearing off. Although Maggie bites to the bone.. no soft tissue nibbles for her.. oooh no. That scares me a little!

I know that I cannot be completely responsible for the way they are. Nor is the store. The breeder who bred them was irresponsible or inexperienced. If I bought them now, after my other better experiences, I would probably be able to deal with them. I would quite likely have two skittish nibblers, rather than two evil carnivores!

In my opinion, nature and nurture play parts. It's like anything, it will inherit certain qualities, and if they are genetic, they won't leave. BUT, they can be tempered. I found an amazing article on the reasons behind handling kittens from a young age. Due to the squeaks made when handled, the young attract the doe's attention. When they're returned, *high power* mothers lick and groom their young, reassuring them. *Low power* mothers ignore them, and don't make a fuss over them. Young from a high power mother have much better stress responses, they are less skittish and more sociable than young from a low power mother. Interestingly in the favour of nurture, if the young are swapped, they develop stress responses that they would have developed if they were the natural young of the individual mothers. Thus litters from a low powered mother, fostered by a high powered mother, develop amazing stress responses, and socialise well.

I also have a rescue rat who is skittish. He has never bitten, but jumps madly. Since I've had him (end of December) he's become a lot calmer, he will sit still, (unless he can smell Warrior..) and he will sit and have a scritch. He DOES NOT like to be picked up from his cage. He doesn't mind your hand in there, so long as it doesn't touch him. He doesn't bite it or anything.. He just runs away. So with a bit of mutual respect we're getting less skittish. He just likes me to open the door and let him climb out when he's ready. Which could take forever as he's a lazy fat boy!!

I don't think skittish hurts in a litter or a dam/ sire.. Aggression definitely does. But I guess if you have the option to have neither, it would be the best option! Especially for young/ inexperienced owners.. Anyway, that was my long two pennies worth about nature and nurture!! Time and patience, and not being scared definitely help.. This trust training is a two way thing!!

ooh and as a by-note, Pets at Home called a meeting with their breeder/ stockist about the fact that I had a pregnant female.. I pointed out that had Hero gone to a younger person with no room for babies (and a rat hating father like mine) the litter would probably have been thrown out for the wild rats to eat. I told them it was their responsibility to check litters they took in as they were selling them; and at 6 weeks old it was plenty easy enough to find testicles on a male. I don't think they liked it, but at least they did something! (And I got 9 free rat babies!! Mr. Green

)

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green

Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:48 am

Bee - off topic a bit (sorry guys!) but I also ended up taking a boy (and my flatmate took the two girls) who had been deliberately put in together by the local P@H manager - they were 7 weeks old and thankfully NOT pregnant... but he deliberately put them together because "males are hard to sell and they sometimes end up in with the girls" and if they were pregnant, they wouldn't get watched to make sure no-one took home pregnant girls, they wouldn't have any special care before or after any delivery, they wouldn't inform prospective owners that they could be pregnant and they didn't care if they had babies because they'd just take them back - free rats to sell. Two of them (including one of the girls) were showing respiratory problems and the boy was getting sicker as I watched. They said they would get treatment "the next time the vet came in" - i.e. the next time they called him to see a larger, more important animal. Rolling Eyes

I complained bitterly and they promised to sort it out..... last time I went in a few days ago - males and females were back to being separated, they had loads of toys and stuff in their cages, and that idiot manager had gone from the store.... Mr. Green

Sorry for the thread hijack - back to the original subject.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:16 pm

(reply to LW.. Yes I know.. I am just HUGELY thankful that a) I got her and not an 8 year old, b) I recognised the symptoms and was able to handle her correctly, and c) I had room for the babies.. I dread to think what the outcome would have been if it wasn't me who bought her by fluke.. )

_________________
~Bee~
Scamps
Warrior
Hero
Maggie n Flo
The Bunch of Tiny Pinkies

RIP Poncho.. The best second hand rat there ever was Mr. Green