RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:45 pm

I also wish I hadnt read this. I know stuff like this goes on ...I just wonder if the school would allow it if it were a pile of puppies? I dont see a difference.
I'm glad no one is home to see me sitting her blubbering like an idiot.
I'm also glad it wasnt me in your place Brit....I would have nightmares. ...youre an angel.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:57 pm

How heart breaking Sad

I am so pleased there are good people in this world to counteract the cruelty.

I will be thinking of those babies all day and all night. Bless them

_________________
my rats: Bunny and Rex
missing: Ralph, Trevor, Mouse and Tariq
my cats: Meg, Minky and Molly

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:25 am

Those poor little darlings Sad

. How are they doing today? Did the little girl make it through the night?

Ratsicles, you did an amazing thing by brinign those two babies home. I would have been right in there beside you grabbing pinkies.

_________________

mother to:
rats: scooter, kermit, lestat + tsume
mouse: bingo [rip sweety. you're with peanut + wizard at the bridge]
horse: phoenix

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:48 am

They're both still alive, I rigged up a syringe with a bit of tubing on the end that fits in their mouths. The boy is now eating well, but the little girl just can't get anything down. Sad

She must be getting something or she wouldn't still be alive, but most of it she chokes on or sucks into her lungs.

I'm pretty sure that the boy is going to make it, and also pretty sure that the girl isn't. Sad

Who knows, she may surprise me, but at the rate things are going, it looks like we may lose her soon. I'm so frustrated, because she's so energetic and seems to want to live, but she just can't swallow anything, even when I get the tube nearly all the way down her throat, she spits everything back up.

But the little boy is probably going to make it, so at least one life will be saved from all this. At least the little girl won't have to die cold and being stomped on or bitten by some big male rat, or worse, dunked in alcohol.

I'm still trying to get her to eat, and I'm not giving up, but I think it's pretty much an exercise in futility. If I can't get her to eat, I can at least make her final moments as comfortable and possible.

Will try to take more pictures in a little bit.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:56 am

You could say you got lost when you saw the rats, and still make a complaint. Or anonymously tip the ASPCA or any valid government agency to ensure that the rats are at least treated somewhat humanely.

Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:58 am

I still hold hope for them both, you are doing everything you can and you are doing great! Common lil girl you are still here and have the will to fight and be stubborn so hang on and pull through. lil boy rock on you are showing us all what surviving is about, blind, deaf, nekkid, and not able to move and you are still doing things on your own. BE STRONG LIL ONES! Shaz

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Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:54 am

I can't believe it- the little boy is gone. I went in just after my last post to feed them and he was dead. I don't know why, he had been doing so well, he was active, he ate like a pig, he was defecating normally- he died with a full milk belly.

I feel like such a failure...I can't believe I let him down like this. I took him into my care, and I couldn't even save him. He had such a horrible, short, brutal life...I'm just at a loss. Maybe I was wrong for taking them. I was wrong for thinking I could possibly save babies so young.

And now all I can do is watch his sister fade away. I don't know how she has so much energy, because she's rail thin and every drop that goes into her mouth comes out through her nose. I was expecting to lose her....but losing the little boy caught me completely off guard.

Rest in peace, little guy...I'm so sorry I failed you.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:06 am

Oh my gosh Brittney, I'm so sorry. Sad

I just found this thread, and when I got to this post, I felt so shocked...

You are such a great, caring person, you did everything you could, and you have SUCH a big heart, it was not your fault at all and you DID NOT let the little boy down. I'm sure he knew that you wanted to save him, and that you were doing everything possible. At least he died in a loving home, with a fully belly. At least he was loved at least once in his life.

Rest well little boy, you won't be forgotten. Hug

And *fingerscrossed* for the little girl, I will be thinking about her, and hoping that she will get better and grow into a strong little rat. Come on little girl you can do it!!!!

Good Vibes

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EMILY-------------------------------------------------

Rest in peace, Violet and Isadora. <3

Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:38 am

Oh no Britt!! I am in shock as well. But dont blame yourself, they would have had a last few miserable days if you didnt take them. Your lil boy got to know love, which is something no one would have given him if he was left behind. Shaz

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Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:44 am

Thanks guys. I know I shouldn't beat myself up over it...but, well, it's hard not to.

I just got the little girl to eat for the first time. This is the first actual meal she's managed to get in more than 24 hours...other than a few drops she sucked down that managed to make it into her tum instead of her lungs. She finally seemed to "get it" when I put the syringe in her mouth, so...maybe she's turning around. I let her eat until she developed a small milk band and then stopped. I didn't want to overfeed her, especially since she went so long without a meal.
I don't want to get my hopes up though. The little boy didn't have half the problems she seems to have, and he still died...so I dunno.

At least she ate though, without getting it all in her nose. She'll appreciate all the good vibes anyone can spare, I'm sure.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:47 am

oh no, man, I just hate to hear about that. I will tell you that one of the hardest things I have ever had to do as a breeder and rat owner is try to hand nurse a very young litter of pinkies. I still try when the need arises and have learned some techniques but I usually do not suceed in saving them for the most part. I cry everytime and I feel like I am a failure- I KNOW what you are feeling right now-It is never easy. You have to remeber that you have lots of people pulling for these guys and you were there in their life when they needed it, no matter how short it may be or if we can save them or not. You have people who know you are trying to do everything you can. I commend you for your efforts in trying to save these babies as this is definately a challening and emotional involvement and one that you boldly choose to take on. Despite all our best intentions or efforts they just don't make it. I will hold you and the babies in my thoughts and prayers tonight.
Amy

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Phoenix Gate Rats
www.pxrats.com

Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:05 am

It's VERY hard to take the place of a mum when you are talking such tiny little things. Don't feel badly you lost the boy. You did everything you could. I can just see the rat angels smiling down on you for trying. I searched several sites last night after my post about humane care and of course rats seem to be exempt from every law covering lab animal welfare. Most universities choose to adhere to laboratory animal welfare codes on a voluntary basis however. Sounds like this school doesn't. I do not want to detract from your baby rescue post, but maybe some letters could make a difference in how they do things in the future? Maybe I could draft something we could sign? I hate to see this happen again ;( It's so hard having rats and knowing how wonderful they are and hearing about how they suffer. Better to know though and kudos for you for not turning a blind eye!!!!!

Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:26 am

Ratsicles-

You took in two babies that were being abused and faced certain death, and gave them a second chance. If it wasn't meant to be, accept it. You tried, and I'm sure that little guy appreciated a warm body, food, and a caring mom, if only for a day.

Here's to hoping the girl makes it, but even if she doesn't, stop beating yourself up and give yourself a pat on the back. You did far more than most anyone else would have, and you deserve to be recognized and commended for it.

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-Ben
My rats: Squishy, Squee, and Nibbler
My dogs (at my mother's house): Lucy and Ricky
My cats (at my dad's house--in Florida!): Cleo (RIP) and Zima

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:16 am

I couldn't have said it better Ben. Big hug to you Britt, and vibes to the little girl.

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Loving Mum to my rattie boys, Zipper and Ty
Bestest Bud to Milly, the greatest horse ever

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:35 am

I'm sorry to hear about the lil boy. Hug

I had found out hand rearing isn't very easy when I had to do the three(Cubone,Mew,Porygon)

You need to remeber that he would of been alot worse had you not had the courage to do something about it.You gave him love,warmth and a full belly.

Be strong lil girl, get better. my rats and cats send out good vibes for you to be well.

_________________
Cats:5 Raistlin,Deanna,Itty-Bitty,Cat,Maxine
Rats:5 Inyuasha,Sesshomaru,Grisom,Sidle,Kikyo
New rats:2 Marowak and Mewtwo
R.I.P
Cat:Mousie
Rat:Vertalus,Mew,Porygon,Cubone

Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:54 pm

Thanks everyone. The little girl is still going, and now that she's learned to eat she stays pretty full and manages to keep from getting most of it in her lungs. She's squirmy and vocal, still pretty thin, and she's passing waste normally too. I don't want to get my hopes up...but somehow, she seems to be hanging on.

I made an appointment to speak to the head of the science department of my college, and I'm going to just go in saying I've heard other students discussing the inhumane treatment of the animals in the psych lab, and that it concerns me. I'll ask as many questions as I can and make as many suggestions as I can without admitting I've actually gone in there and seen the rats. Since I'll have to say it was all based on things I've overheard, I'm afraid they'll just dismiss everything I say and assure me everything is fine...but I dunno. The appointment is for Monday, so I'll let everyone know how it goes.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:00 pm

Its easy enough to say that a student took you there to show you the rats. Not giving up their name would be perfectly acceptable and keeping in their trust of you.
That would also make your claims be first hand. If this comes back to something where you CAN do something, they will catch you in a lie and say you never seen them so how could you know etc etc.

If possible you should TRY to get pictures somehow..even one or two to document it. They might get scared and clean up their act just this once and then every year after you're gon carry on the same practises =/

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:45 pm

I am glad you rescued those two poor rats. Don't recriminate yourself-
you tried to help at least.

Concerning this study, it seems that the methodology is suspect. The
way that these tests are usually run is that the rat chooses the drug over food, i.e. self selecting:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2004/08/12/rat_addicts040812.html

The choice of drugs is also unworkable- morphine instead of cocaine.
Cocaine is a much more quickly absorbed drug, with a quick level of action and morphine isn't quite the same. I'm taking 60 to 150 mgs
of morphine daily for medical reasons, and I haven't yet gotten any withdrawl symptoms. Opiates suppress the appetite, and that is why heroin is know in Hollywood as a 'diet drug.' I'ts no wonder the rats
wouldn't eat after that.

With so many flaws in this study, it seems that the results would be worthless. Perhaps you could point this out to the administration.

I wish you success in your fight. Perhaps if this story got out to PETA,
ALF or ELF they might be of some assistance.

_________________
X: XERXES did die,
And so must I.

Last edited by Viva_Il_Papa! on Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:59 pm

Poor babies. I'll keep my fingers crossed for the little girl Hug

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Shanatica aka Charlotte.

www.shanatica.dk

Belly Kiss

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 pm

I don't really know the ins and outs of the expiriment- all that I have is a little hear-say from other students. Stuff I've asked casually, snippets of conversation I've overheard. So, there may be more to the actual expiriment than I know. My stepdad says he rememers doing it only vaguely- this was 30 years ago when he was in college, and he used LOTS of live animals in experiments.

It may sound as though I'm being cowardly about it, but I just don't want to start something huge while I'm a student here. I don't want tons of letters written, I don't want to alert animal rights groups...maybe later this year after I've transferred to another college (which I was planning on doing anyway) THEN I'll try to get groups involved and that sort of thing. Right now, I just really don't want to cause something that could potentially get me in trouble or get kicked out of school...not because I don't care about the rats or their situation, but for a lot of personal and family reasons that I won't get into here. Now just is not the time for me to try that sort of thing.

Not only that, but I seriously disagree with PETA and ALF's tactics. Those are two groups that I certainly wouldn't be looking for help from...but I do get your point about getting a group with more of a voice than I have involved.

When I speak to the department head, I'll ask him if he can explain the expiriment more clearly and I'll suggest that it does contain flaws. They've been doing this expiriment yearly for over thirty years, and I don't expect them to stop. It's too late for these rats in particular- from what I've heard they're being handed out Monday- but if they're going to continue doing this year after year, I'd like to see that they at least treat them decently in the future.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:06 pm

Good Luck and you are a great person for doing what you did!!! Last night after reading this story I sat up and thought of what I would in the same situation, and although I'd like to say I would have saved them all, I probley would have done the exact same thing. Don't ever think differently either, you did do the right thing, and the fact that, that little boy died somewhere where he was loved instead of "unwanted" made a big difference to him I'm sure. Good luck also for the little girl, I wish I had some advice but I've never had to do raise rats from such a young age, but it seems like your doing pretty good!!!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:47 am

I've been wanting to respond to this post, but everytime I go through it I feel like my heart is being ripped up...and I know its been said in every other post, but I still want to say that what youre doing is amazing. Thankfully the little boy passed on happily and I'm really pulling for the little girl. Good luck with everything!

Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:40 am

Oh my gosh, you are a brave human being. I feel like giving you a crown for saving those babies. They dont deserve to die, what your school dose to rats is horrible(no offense) Nuture these babies with all of you heart, for the mommie who faught so hard to try to keep her babies alive. I know feeding babies and hand raising them is possible because my family hand fed and took care ofa kitten I found in the woods at my grandmothers cottage. He had flys and nats and fleas on him and buzzing around him... he was wobbling around, and just a few weeks old. I scooped him up and we gave him a bath. 3 years later: his name is Monay(my grandma names all of her cats after famous artists... I dont know if I spelled his name right) and he is very healthy, living his days happily at my cousins farm. He is a sweetie, and
I love him to death, even though only get to see him a few times each year. I am praying for your girl to make it, and I have always believed in miracles.

I will think of her every day, and will pray she makes it. Im so sorry that the boy died... at least he died in peace and was being cared for...my prayers and good luck to you and your girl. pray

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_______________
To the world, you are one person.
To a rat, you are the world.
~Charlie S.
Kristina an her babies, Basil and Snickers.
~*RIP Ema, I miss you sweetie!*~
<:3( )~~~~~~~

Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:41 am

It's not your fault, Britt... You're doing the best you can with these babies, and trying hard to balance everything in your life. You're still doing way more than many people would do and trying to do it in a reasonable and rational way.

I'm so sorry the little boy didn't make it - you know in your heart that raising babies by hand is very difficult to do and sometimes the strongest go when you least expect it, and the weakest fight on and do well (like Cerul and Pipster). Good Vibes

for the little girl - I hope she continues fighting.

Viva_Il_Papa - sorry to hear you need morphine also - I'm on morphine and fentanyl myself (equivalent of something like 300-350mg of morphine a day right now) and I most certainly have felt withdrawal effects a couple of times over the last 2 years - usually as a result of cutting my doses too quickly. Missing or being late for a single dose causes me a significant increase in my pain, but usually doesn't trigger withdrawal symptoms - that takes several days. More problematic are the appetite suppression, the nausea and vomiting, the gut slowing, the slowed physical reflexes and the horrible itching.... On the other hand, all that nausea and poor appetite has allowed me to lose 35kg (77lb) that other drug treatments meant I put on.

The physical withdrawal effects of opioids, if you stop too fast or miss enough doses are crippling - imagine the worst case of flu ever, combined with the worst case of food poisoning - so you feel feverish, hurt all over, your head pounds, you throw up, you have agonising gut cramps and diarrhoea and on top of that your heart thumps and pounds, you get restless and anxious - horrible. The severity of withdrawal effects depends a lot upon the dosages that you've been taking as well as the length of time that you have been taking them for - but even taking morphine for a couple of weeks post surgery can cause a day or two of physical withdrawal if stopped suddenly. Thankfully I've not had problems cutting down and stopping opiates in the past within days or a few weeks as long as the doses are tapered appropriately - because I have no addiction to deal with. Addiction is far harder to treat and manage than dependence.

Physical dependence is normal with many medications (including painkillers, steroids and a whole host of other drugs) because the body adjusts to their presence. Addiction, however, is a completely different demon to deal with and the fact that someone has physical dependence on opiates does not automatically make them an addict. However, because of the number of people that abuse painkillers, the line between addiction and dependence is very blurred in people's minds.

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Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:38 am

We lost the litle girl this morning. Sad

She was fine at her 5am feeding, and again at her 7. At 9 she was dead. She had been doing fine, had gained energy, gained weight, was doing well.

I don't understand why raising baby rats is so difficult. I've done squirrels, chipmunks, opossums, and kittens and have NEVER failed with any of them. I just don't see why rats are so hard to do, especially given their hardiness as a species. *Sigh.*

I feel like I need to go take one of the older ones. I feel like something good just has to come of this thing. I can't take more babies, because they won't live...but one of the older ones might. They have to buy more than they need, since so many have died...so, I dunno. I need to think about it. I know it's silly to think about taking one...they aren't mine. I'm just so upset about the situation, and want to do something, but know that there is very little that I can actually do.

I know it's stupid, but I feel like I was shown this situation for a reason. I never listen in on other people's conversations, but for some reason I was when those students happened to be talking about the experiment...I never go randomly walking around random buildings on campus, but I did the day I found the psych lab. I feel like I'm supposed to do something about it, that this happened for a reason, and that if I don't save one, I'll be completely failing them all. Just giving up now, because of the little girl's death, seems so incredibly wrong.

I don't know, I know it's silly. I'll have to mull it over for a while anyway before I decide...but I'll have to make the decision by Monday morning. I wouldn't be able to take a female, since I don't have the space for an entire litter right now...but maybe one of the older males? I don't know. I don't know what the right thing to do would be.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."