RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:57 am

Okay, I just tried again, and it was an awful experience. I was calm. I gave him love. Then I tried to get him in the Stockinet. He wriggled out. I tried again. Got it around his neck. He freaked and whipped around and tried to bite me. I screamed instinctively (can't help it- I'm one of those screamers) and slammed my knee so hard into the floor I thought I broke my kneecap. Then every time I tried to take the Stockinet off him, he tried to bite me. Finally got it off. Then tried using a medicine syringe to squirt some mineral oil into his butt. Tried several times. Thought it worked. Have no idea. We both hugged and kissed and cuddled for a few minutes, and now he is running around, licking mineral oil off his sore butt. And I feel like a complete failure.

Andy, I just rehomed two foster rats I'd planned to adopt because they were skittish, and I am deathly afraid of rat bites. It took me forever, last fall, to even be able to let my two MICE crawl onto my HAND. I was sweating and hyperventilating when I tried to do it. To get to the point where I can kiss and hold and love ratties was major. I will be honest and say that their unpredictability scares me. And if I ever did get a rat bite, I'm afraid it would change me enough that I would not want rats. So I guess there's a lot of baggage that some folks might not have. I am not naturally relaxed around rats.

I swear, if I can find a way to help him I will do my best. This is hard for me- and I am most hard on myself. I feel extreme guilt already that I have not been able to just take the bull by the horns and get the job done.

You were not patronizing. I'm just struggling with my own issues as well as with Simon.

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:38 am

Wow Paula, you get the high five for hanging in there and trying, although I know that's the only option for a lover of rats. I know what you mean about having to do it alone--I am single and have no friends willing to hold rats for anything, but I'm sorry you can't have help nonetheless, especially when you probably want to run screaming. I'd be popping a xanax about now. You are trying your best and your best will probably get better and better as your tolerance rises to meet this particular problem. I noticed that with my first rat/respiratory/syringe feeding experience. I just want to wish you luck and send you and Simon healing pooping vibes. What a great forum where people can talk about this stuff and get help. and praise to you Shanna for clarifying everything and being so open. Paula, I know giving up isn't an option. I think with the vet's help, somehow you will find a routine that works for you and Simon.
Angela

Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:14 am

I wish I knew how to make this a easier for you. I can only try to reassure you and I'm afraid that will sound empty because you're dealing with an issue that I've never dealt with, and the last thing I want is to a) make you feel bad, even indirectly, or b) come across patronsing, not understanding or as if I were to be sweeping your concerns under the carpet. So I'll try my best, and please bear with me if I do get it wrong.

First off - you're not a failure. I can only imagine how nervewracking the whole process must be; you're trying to adjust to the diagnosis anyway, you're trying to deal with the fear you have over the bites, you're still (I bet) feeling bad about rehoming the foster rats, you're still very new to the whole rat thing and so far you're feeling like everything is going wrong, you can't get things right and that you're failing him and failing yourself and that you're simply not meeting the standard for a good ratty mom. You may well feel that if it was anyone else, they'd just have got over it and have done it by now. You said yourself, when you rehomed the foster pair "I wanted so much to be like most of you... But I've failed."

You didn't fail then, and you haven't failed now. Please try to believe that. I know it's hard but I think we've all felt that way in the past. I know for sure I have (and still do sometimes). No-one is harder on me than I am, and no-one ever could be, I don't think. I judge myself so harshly at times and yes, there are times when I feel like a complete failure - because so many of my rats got sick before they were 1 and died by 18 months. Because I couldn't save Bart when he stopped breathing, because I couldn't stop Zaphod's abscess spreading and killing him, because Charlie fought me like a demon when his teeth needed trimming instead of it being a quick process, because despite the fact that I am very experienced with lancing abscesses, I haven't been able to bring myself to do it on a rat, even when it needs doing.

To be honest, the very thought of having to give one of my guys an enema isn't something I really think I'd be comfortable doing. I'd find it traumatic, I'd be petrified about doing it wrong and hurting them badly, making them painful, making things worse.... You've found yourself in a situation where you understandably don't feel that you're coping very well - but honestly, I think you're doing great. You've not fallen to bits, you're continuing to try, even though it's traumatic for you and/or Simon, you've done loads of research - You are FAR from a failure.

And if you don't get the enema this time - you've said yourself you'll get some more help from the vet on the subject. And like I said - I have every faith that you can do this - and I know damn well you're giving it your best and that's no more than anyone else could ask for. You're giving Simon the chance of life that, in most cases, he wouldn't ever have got. If it works out, then fantastic.... but please try to hang onto the fact that you're doing something very special that a lot of people would find difficult to live with and deal with. You're doing the best you can for him - and that's all that anyone can do. Hug

As to the oil enema... hopefully that helped him. I found an article on ratguide about giving enemas - I assume that's one you've already seen (based on Woody's life with megacolon) so now I have a better idea of how it's done. I'd be anxious about it too - even if logically I know what the body is capable of. And yes... I have to admit, I'd be nervous about getting bitten as well.

One thing I did spot - seeing as how he hates the stockinette for restraint - is that this article suggested using a conforming bandage as a resraint - wrap it around their upper torso and forearms (but not tight enough to cause breathing problems of course) so I don't know if perhaps that would be a possible option to consider.

Hopefully you wil have got enough oil into him to help soften things up... I did find an article about megacolon in cats so I'll see if I can come up with any other crazy ideas though I imagine the people who have already dealt with MC have already considered most or all of them anyway.

Keep faith in yourself hun - you're doing a great job with him - he's happy and licky (even if he has a sore botton now) and he's doing well so far - and that's down to you giving him a suitable diet, getting him the right vet care and loving him the way you do. Considering that you are very new to rats and you're dealing with other issues with them anyway, I'd say you should be proud of everything you've done, not feel like a failure.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:50 pm

That was a very kind message, Andy. I appreciate that you take the time to really talk- you make such a difference to people here. Thank you for being a friend (and thanks, Angela & everyone else).

I just checked on him- his butt isn't looking so great. More distention. A couple of barely visible now-dried squirts of poop came out during the night, but that's it. I don't think I got any mineral oil IN there.

I have another bandage wrap- tried to get that on him, too. I can't wrap it tightly enough to do the trick before he wildly squirms out. I've had moderate success with a towel.

Didn't sleep well. Going to call vet as soon as they open. May have to take my 5-yr-old in with me if we have to go in this morning as opposed to this afternoon.

I keep thinking what Angela said- there's GOT to be a way for me (specifically me, with my issues) to DO this. I keep trying to have faith in the process I trust- that after enough jumping in & flailing around, things start to make sense, and you find your way.

We saw a magician the other day. He was able to twist a fork neck around while my husband held the fork. Maybe I can hire him to get Simon's opening open, simply using his mind. Maybe he can teach me.

Edit after vet: They did an enema this morning- he actually pooped a huge poop right before the exam room, probably from stress. Maybe the mineral oil I possibly did get inside his butt helped after all.

I called the pharmacy myself and the peanut-butter flavored Cisapride will arrive tomorrow or Monday.

I will try to check frequently to massage anything soft out- and if he gets backed up fast again and I need help, the vet's office is open tomorrow until 12:00.

Best case scenario is that after a week or two the Cisapride will help enough to help ME manage him at home. If I had four hands, I could do it.

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:20 am

Glad to hear he's feeling a bit better now - I think you probably did get some oil in there. From what I read, it helps if you can massage the area under his tail before inserting the oil, then afterwards to help soften things up.

Like Angela says - you'll find a way that works best for you and Simon. I was talking about Simon with my flatmate, and he said "When I think how much they struggle trying to get medicine in the mouth end, I'm not surprised they struggle when you try to get it in the other end." - which is a good point. Most everyone has had a fight on their hands trying to get Baytril (usually) into a rat that really doesn't want to take it. But in the vast number of cases, we find a way to do it. I believe that the same will turn out true with Simon and you - I wish I could tell you now how to do it, but it may just be that you need a little time for things to click into place.

I've seen a couple of references (not just with rats) to using senna and cisapride at the same time to stimulate the gut to contract.... but I wonder if an osmotic laxative (like lactulose) which draws water into the colon along the way might be something to consider. Perhaps lactulose along with the cisapride - so the cisapride encourages the gut to get things moving, while the lactulose helps to keep things soft and moist, without adding the bulk that things like fibre would. Does that sound like a workable idea to people with much more experience/knowledge than me?

I know that in larger animals, megacolon can be effectively cured by surgery to remove the faulty part of the gut... but obviously rats are so small... and I suspect that it may be impossible or considered impossible to do that kind of surgery on them. Sad

Hopefully, though, Paula - whatever way, you'll find a way to keep his poop soft enough that you can just help him go with some massage. I'm keeping everything crossed and I hope you can get him on a comfortable regime soon. Hug

and

for both of you - be gentle to yourself and give him a smooch for me. If I could lend you my hands, I would.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:27 am

	CricketSong wrote:
	I just checked on him- his butt isn't looking so great. More distention. A couple of barely visible now-dried squirts of poop came out during the night, but that's it. I don't think I got any mineral oil IN there.

If no one has stated this before (I've become lost in all the poop talk), those diarrhea squirts are liquid stool that is able to bypass the blockage. Unfortunately, it doesn't help. Sad

That's why I find laxatives to be rather useless. I gave up on Senekot. It may soften stuff behind the blockage, but does nothing for it. And the laxative didn't seem to work very well either.

Did you get to talk to Bella, Paula?
Crossed Fingers

for the weekend!!

_________________
Karinka
Stop by and see StellaLuna Rattery
www.stellalunarattery.com

Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:55 am

Yeah, we are covered in poop here, aren't we? I actually just told Angela earlier about what the tiny squirts of poop mean. And Senokot does nothing for Simon either.

Andy, I've heard lactulose mentioned too. Something to keep in mind.

Before I went to take a nap (oh blessed sleep), Frisco was trying to bite through his cage bars to get to Simon's baby food, so I went downstairs to the sink and scraped out the rest to give to him & Minna, lol.

Off to work now, and the store for more Ensure.

Thanks for being here. Group hug?

Love,
Paula

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket

Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:53 am

Senokot (despite the references I've seen to it) probably doesn't help because it works by stimulating the nerves to contract and relax the muscle of the gut... but the problem is that the nerves aren't there, so bits stay contracted, and then the poop tends to build up behind that area and cause the dilation of the colon (the mega bit of the name).

Really, at the moment, there's two aspects to megacolon management, from what I've researched:
1) getting him to a point where stool gets to the rectum soft so that it's easier to manage on a day to day basis.
2) softening hard stool that's already in the gut so that you can get it out with as little problem as possible.

The oil, enemas and massage/manipulation go towards step 2, while things like cisapride, laxatives and diet go towards step 1. Trouble is finding things that work best in each case, while also remembering that many things won't work in megacolon.

Like Karinka says, just softening stuff behind the hard poop in the rectum won't help to clear that (though it may help prevent it happening again in the future).

Laxatives fall into several groups.
a) osmotic laxatives - like lactulose. They work by putting something into the gut that draws fluid out into the stool rather than reabsorbing it. It's also the reason that lactose intolerant people have problems with diarrhoea, because when they can't break down the lactose, it remains in the gut and draws water into the stool.
b) irritant laxatives - like senna. They work by irritating the gut, or stimulating it to contract harder and more often. Because stool is forced through the gut quicker, the colon can't absorb as much water, and so the stool is more liquid.
c) lubricant laxatives - like mineral oil. They work by coating or softening stool in the gut so that it's easier for the gut to push it through.
d) bulking laxatives - like bran fibre. They work by bulking out the stool and stretching the colon, so that the muscles contract more and find it easier to push the stool along. Something like Fybogel also has an osmotic component to it, as soluble fibre also draws a lot of water into the stool as well as bulking it out.

The way I see it with megacolon - irritant laxatives may be of a little help, but probably not enough (it won't do anything to help the atonic area of gut with no nerves), and may cause pain and problems in the area behind it if there is a large build up of poop. Bulking laxatives again, are not going to be a good idea if you're trying to keep up with a low residue diet. However, something like psyllum husk might be an option if you find that soluble fibre helps rather than worsens the problem because it's soft and jelly like and draws a lot of moisture into the stool. Lubricating laxatives like mineral oil may help to move things through the gut, but used long term orally, they can prevent the absorption of some nutrients, so probably shouldn't be used long term if something else can help. Osmotic laxatives pass through unchanged on the whole, so you have the benefit of not putting any drugs into the system. You have to make sure they drink plenty (and you can stimulate that with sweetened water and very liquid diets etc) for them to work well and to prevent dehydration, but they don't rely on the gut having the nerves, so I would imagine that these kinds of laxatives are probably the most useful.... though I certainly bow to the experience of people who have dealt with this in rats - I can only offer these thoughts from a human point of view.

Anyway - I'll shut up for now.

Group Hug

all around Paula. Hug

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:39 am

I'm sorry I haven't been able to keep up with the posts....so please forgive me if I state something already mentioned.

If I remember right Senekot was NOT a good idea.

I found it became very easy to help Willie poo after he got the hang of the ritual. I would just hold him on my shoulder with his face pointing over my shoulder facing behind me and his hind end out front with his tail pointing downward, I would have my left hand on his back, giving him pets and scritches....and with my right hand, feel under his tail and just guide the poo out. After some time, I could tell he was trying to help me, even though he totally relied on me for the 'work'.

Bella is a great resource. Her boy Woody lived to be 19 months old with MC. She had to feed him a much more liquid diet than we did Willie.

_________________
Debbie and the gang of spoiled furries

Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:36 am

Isn't there anything that could be given to the rat to make him relaxed and sleepy before attempting the rear end business? Like the stuff in benadryl? or something herbal? I can't imagine trying to give my rats an enema. I keep thinking, if a vet can learn it, I can learn it, and try and get confidence with treating the animals that way, but I know it must seem horribly difficult right now. You may become an expert. I have an elderly bunny (>11) that is needing more and more special care and I too feel like a failure when I read what other people accomplish (wheelchair carts, cleaning ears, cleaning rears, physical therapy, massage, etc. etc.). There is a lot to learn and it seems overwhelming at first. My project this weekend is to spend more time learning how to care for his new special needs. I'll be checking here to see how you are doing with Simon, as will your other friends here. Sounds like Debbie and others found something that worked for them, and maybe once Simon figures out what is going on, he will be working with you more than fighting you or squirming. I don't know anything about it, but maybe working with him the same time once or twice a day might help, so he knows what to expect, and with some sort of treat after? I find that they do respond to lots of excited praise as much as food treats. Wishing you strength and courage and for Simon, squishy poo.
Angela

Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:09 pm

Thank you! We are having a good morning. Last night he did seem to hold still much more calmly for gentle massage and poop pinching (got a bit of soft stuff out). I think he is learning that I am trying to help. And guess who is right now squirting poop onto his cage towels? I do think maybe he had a bit too much mineral oil- some of the poop looks exactly like baby food, but some is the normal brown "had time to get through the system and leave some nutrition" poop.

I know I should be careful with the amount of mineral oil. If I can find just enough of a bit to add to his food to make things really soft but not make things squirt out before they give him nutrients...

I am trying a baby nasal aspirator to gently squirt some oil onto/hopefully into his butt. It's soft and much easier to control than a medicine syringe. I also have a soft rubber-bulb type medicine syringe for kids.

Well, I may have erred too much on the side of squirtiness last night/this morning, but he won't need any hard poop pinched out, or an enema.

I'll be thinking of you and your bunny, Angela. Best wishes! Feel free to PM me and vent or shout your success (gosh, I can't even hear "vent" anymore without thinking of poop. And the word "constitution" was on the TV screen the other day and I thought it said "constipation.")

_________________
~Paula~
Ratties: Frisco, Simon & Minna
Mousies: Polly & Pocket