RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:41 am

I have posted a few things about my in-cage maze and some have asked that I post how I did it; well here you go.

*Edit - here is an image that i knocked out that may help 'splain what i am talking about
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/136974/pets-and-animals/ratmaze-1.5.jpg -Edit*

*Edit - Removed random unnessessary bits from cyber space - Edit*

If you have any questions please dont hesitate to ask,
JBC

Last edited by jonnyboxcutter on Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:57 am; edited 2 times in total

Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:19 am

Spatial awareness isn't my greatest forte, but I think I have it. Does it look kind of like this?

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:28 am

Exactly, I just wish I would’ve thought of making an image instead of attempting to explain it, oh well…

See if this works better...
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/136974/pets-and-animals/ratmaze-1.5.jpg

JBC

Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:38 pm

I think I'm starting to get it but I still don't completely understand. Some photos will be much appreciated when you get the chance.

Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:09 am

OK I get it now.

Binky it might be easier if you try it for youself- Look at the image I made - so you have 9 tubes stacked up, three by three.

If you look at the column of three tubes on the left hand side, there are two holes cut between the bottom and middle tubes - one at each end - so that the rat can climb up from the bottom to the middle tube. There are another two holes between the middle and top tubes, so that the rat can climb up to the top tube.

If you look at the row of three tubes as the bottom, there is one whole between the left and middle tubes, so that the rat can move from one to the other. There's also hole between the middle and right hand tube, so that the rat can move between those two tubes as well.

If you get two toilet rolls - cut a whole 1/2 an inch from each end, and make it about half an inch in diameter. If you stick them together, with the holes together, that will give you an idea of how the rat gets up and down levels.

If you take those two tubes with the two holes facing upwards - turn them a quarter turn, and cut a same size hole in the middle of the tubes. Then put the tubes together, with the holes you've just cut against each other - and that's how rats move from one tube to another horizontally.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:14 am

LittleWillow wrote:

OK I get it now.

Binky it might be easier if you try it for youself- Look at the image I made - so you have 9 tubes stacked up, three by three.

If you look at the column of three tubes on the left hand side, there are two holes cut between the bottom and middle tubes - one at each end - so that the rat can climb up from the bottom to the middle tube. There are another two holes between the middle and top tubes, so that the rat can climb up to the top tube.

If you look at the row of three tubes as the bottom, there is one whole between the left and middle tubes, so that the rat can move from one to the other. There's also hole between the middle and right hand tube, so that the rat can move between those two tubes as well.

If you get two toilet rolls - cut a whole 1/2 an inch from each end, and make it about half an inch in diameter. If you stick them together, with the holes together, that will give you an idea of how the rat gets up and down levels.

If you take those two tubes with the two holes facing upwards - turn them a quarter turn, and cut a same size hole in the middle of the tubes. Then put the tubes together, with the holes you've just cut against each other - and that's how rats move from one tube to another horizontally.

Wow, it took me endless blather, awful ASCII, and I still had make an image just to do what you did in what? 100 +/- words or so…

…you’re good, that or maybe I am just long winded (my $$’s is on both)

If you end up making one, please let me know how your rats take to it. I would be very interested in hearing if you notice any behavioral changes after they have had the chance to play in it and get used to it. I still will post actual pix as soon as I can get a digital camera (by the end of the night I would assume).

JBC

Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:08 am

Oh My Goodness!
My head HURTS!
And I still dont get it???

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:54 am

Well I finally got everything setup; these pix of the maze should help.

Check out the door located directly in front of the center tube, I can ruin their day in ten seconds.

Last night after I posted the image I decided to change out the center tube (around 12:30am). I was up until 5:00am watching them zoom around. At one point a “fight” broke out on first floor (check out the first pic; on the left you will see one of the offenders peeking out of the ear, the other is the fat one in the maze) anyway they tear off into the ear and explode out of the top like they had been fired out of a gun. I don’t think their feet touched until they hit the maze. The first to make it in was about two steps ahead of the other; she hit and went high, the second hit and went low. I thought I was going to wet myself. The first rat did a 180 in the top tube and was going to nail the chaser, the second rat was dead sure the chase was over and she had won it. The looks they had on their faces was priceless, well actually it was more of a WHAT THE!!!!!!

I’m also looking for comments (dont need to be nice just honest) on my crew’s villa.
Here are the specs:
29 Gal Tank w/ Homemade cage top
30” long
12” wide
18” tall w/o cage top
37” w/ the cage top

Decor:
- The maze (upper left hand corner)
- The tube running vertically up the center (some use the rope some don’t)
- First floor – it’s a knotted rope zip tied zigzag across the cage
- Second floor - is 3/8 inch rope woven into the cage to make a floor
- Third floor – is another knotted rope same as the first floor but with wider spacing
- Wadding pool shelf – you get a good look at it in the last two images
- The Ear – 2 - 90 degree joints (the same stuff the maze is made out of) zipped together. We do have a match for the other side. There is also a set of 90 degree angles with a connecting tube (when it's on it makes the cage look like a beer cooler)

- The only toy in the cage that the kids and I did not make is the igloo

(if some of it does not look right, please notice the cage top is only sitting on top of the tank; it should sit about an inch lower and it “snaps” on)

When the cage gets cleaned it gets stripped down to bare wire and reworked. The maze does stay is longer than most, but never longer than 2 cage cleanings.

Thanks,
JBC

Last edited by jonnyboxcutter on Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total

Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:44 pm

Do you find that they climb up the front, into the open ends? Or do you cage off all of the ends when you put it together?

I think I will give it a try - I'll try and write down exact instructions when I build it so that even if someone doesn't follow our explanations, they can put one together and then work out how it works.

I'll probably make it so that it's one opening each way, and might make it bigger too - probably not for inside the cage (it would be rather cramped) but I can make it so that it's an add-on to the cage. I have a kit of plastic tubes that clip together designed for ferrets, so I might see if I can utilise that to make something similar. If not, I'll be raiding the hardware store.

Cagewise - 30” by 12” by 37” I make it from your figures. The tank is 18" high, yes? From what I can see, there's no full size shelves, is that right? I can only see smaller shelf on the wading pool area.

The main issue I can think of is really floor space - while it's plenty big enough volume wise (it's 7.7 cubic feet) for 3 rats, maybe for 4 (at the recommended 2 cubic foot per rat), especially if they get plenty of time outside. However, a cage the size you have with no internal floors would be not really be able to hold any more rats than one that is 30" x 12" x 12" (which would be 2.5 cubic foot, and 1.25 rats.

Usually, you'd want floors to be spaced around 12" apart, and preferably to provide as much floor space as you can reasonably give them (one large platform or two half size platforms is preferable to 5 or 6 small ones). Because the tank at the bottom is 18 inches, that makes it a little harder to put a shelf 2/3rds up, but as you've made the top part of the cage, might it be possible to extend it downwards, with a section that fits inside with a hanging shelf? Then, above that, you can have the maze (which also helps give floor space and hidey holes) and the wading pool (which is a great idea - does it get wet in the rest of the cage) and so on.

I remember you like natural and challenging, so perhaps you could look at bolting or fastening on some branches to the sides - either as ledges, climbing things or extra floor space. Hiding spaces are a good thing to have - preferably at least one for each rat (though they may well all pile into the same one, the igloo!) to give them options to get apart from each other. And I have to say... hammocks. Not very natural, but they do tend to love em. wink

Perhaps you could weave some soft rope into a hammock or string up a couple of pieces of rope parallel to each other and fasten some fabric over the ropes?

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:40 pm

Do they actually play with the rocks in the water?
I love that idea! I really want to do that!

As far as your cage topper....isn't that thing heavy?
How do you have it secured to the top of the aquarium?
I would freak if it slipped off.

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:51 pm

dawn, on the dapper rat website, the girl made a wading pool for her rats and put some "stepping stones" (lol!) at the bottom for the rats to step on/play with .. and they really liked to investigate them, move them around, things like that

_________________

Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:16 am

The maze, they climb all over it. I only caged off the ends of the treat rooms so they only have one way in. I left the rest of it open ended for that very reason.

The Cage, Sorry LW, but here is where my developing theory on what is a healthy cage environment and what looks to be common practice are radically different, but that is for another conversation (I had planned on starting a thread to cover this very topic). I am not trying to pick on you, you just happened to post in favor of everything I was trying to avoid when I built this cage.

The Toys:
The wading pool doesn’t make any messes at all. I keep it very high in the cage (to keep the bedding out) and the way it is made they can’t spill it. There are two bowls (the throw away zip-loc bowls) one is recessed and permanently zipped to the shelf, the second (the one with the water and rocks) sits on top of the other (like they were stacked); it gets one zip tie so they don’t take it out and spill it. This way I can quickly take the water bowl out and clean it or whatever without having to tear apart the cage. The first bowl also “hides” the bare and sharp wire ends when the water bowl is taken out.

Finally throw in some small to med size rocks and add rats (very important you do it in that order, what ever you do don’t add the rocks and throw the rats – they don’t like that much)

The rock serve two functions: one as toys to play with (I find rocks in the igloo all the time) and two to help the water and other “stuff” dry out faster (keeps it from stinkin’)

Is it Heavy... that is the one down side to the cage but i don’t mind. In the pix it is just sitting on the tank. When it is mounted the bottom lip of the cage snaps around the black trim of the tank, add both together and its not going anywhere.

Just for a quick FYI to the group those pix only show about a quarter of the stuff built to go in it or on it. I have a few coconuts drilled out for houses, and halved for food bowls (all get bolted to the cage). I also have shelves of varying size and function (you saw the pool). I have Pet shop stuff too but they don’t like it much at all so it rarely gets used. When I do it’s to solve the hanging shelf issue LW asked about (this is all the hammocks get use for ). To cove the “soft” stuff, I fill the igloo with old t-shirts torn up and they move them where they want them. One of the best is when the bedding bag is empty I tear it up and fill the fish tank (all the way to the top) with the paper (that too stays until the next cage cleaning day). Then there is the “wish” list. As we get bored new stuff gets built

Wish list:
- Marble shelves
- An addon terrarium (might even add fish to it if I can work out the filtration issues)
- Terracotta Pots
- An in cage tree (had not thought of this b4 LW mentioned the sticks)
- And sticks too (thanx again LW)

There are 4 rats in the cage now, and it could easily go to 6 or 8 absolutely with out problems (even though the math puts it at capacity or just over right now). I say that because of the way the rats are acting. This is hands down the most dynamic cage I have ever kept my rats in. I am noticing major differences in their over-all behavior from all the other rats I that I have had (I have kept rats since I was 5 or so and would estimate in that time I have had well over 200 rats).

If there is anything you would like to see a better pic of let me know. It all (even the ears) connects with a few zip ties.

JBC

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:03 am

I can see they have alot of things to keep them engaged and thinking!
Seriously if I were you though and you want to expand to 8 rats....
I would duplicate the exact cage and connect them side-by-side.
Aquariums are easy enough to find.

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:52 am

JBC - Well I'm curious now.

If you have a good theory then please do post and explain. But I have to say that I'm surprised - Norway rats are not arboreal, so floor space becomes more important than height. In nature, they build themselves rather extravagent nests (preferably underground or underneath other items, with a maze of tunnels) so I'm not sure what you're basing things on - but I am interested to find out.

Here's my understanding of things - and why I've not had reason to question the accepted wisdom as to volume and floorspace - as a starting point for the discussion.

In nature, they live in colonies and they tend to have their own little areas and territories. Although they might be found in large groups, within that group there is a pecking order, and by providing plenty of places to escape to, plenty of space to get around, and so on, fits with their normal territories. Sure, in the wild they might be in smaller spaces, but scientific research hasn't found any negative effects associated with undercrowding, but overcrowding definitely has deleterious effects. Taxing their brains with puzzles, changes, searching for food rather than just giving it up all the time can keep them amused, occupied and exercise their brains.

If it was the hammocks (because I'm not sure what aspects you're not necessarily in agreement with just yet) then yes - hammocks obvciously aren't natural, but they're generally a favourite with many rats, and they're also useful for breaking up long drops - having seen a not very stable ratty get nudged and fall all the way down one ramp and almost fall another foot down to a second level, I must admit I have nightmares about long falls.

I'm not sure if your theory is based on getting them back to a natural environment (which is my assumption here, though I have no real basis to go on just yet, so this may be moot) but I see it as similar to the fact that humans aren't designed to wear clothes, but we've adapted to be comfortable doing so. Rats aren't designed to be kept in cages and there are significant differences between wild rats and domesticated ones, despite all their similarities.

I'm not being argumentative (and I've edited this to clarify it because I can see how it might come across that way!) - Just so as you understand where I come from, I'm from a science background and I try to avoid accepting information as gospel truth without doing any research - and I certainly try to research it before I repeat it elsewhere. Where I can, I base my evidence on scientific research, and experience (though I do realise that my personal experience alone isn't necessarily statistically valid and sometimes has limited value). I try to evaluate what people have said or what I have read, and determine if there is any evidence to support it as being true or having any basis in reality. Lots of things haven't really (such as grapes, raisins and chocolate being toxic, the rates of protein sensitivity being overestimated, dietary factors, fusing pelvises after 8 months, strep throat killing your rats, to name but a few) and plenty have research to back it up - but too many people post things that have no evidence to back it up (like product X being toxic to small animals, because they read it in a chain email) and - while it's done in good faith, it can cause a whole lot of hassle and worry unnecessarily.

I'm not saying, mind you, that this is what you are doing, nor am I suggesting that you think I am simply repeating dogma without looking into it at all.

If you have a good theory as to why commonly accepted wisdom is wrong, then please do present it up here - because I'm interested in anything like this. Progress is important. I am curious though what you were expecting from asking for opinions of your cage though. wink

Re: the maze - I didn't notice if you said, but do you close off all the ends facing out, or do you leave them open? If you leave them open, do you find they simply climb up the outside and go in them wherever rather than follow the maze through?

Also, I'm just wondering are your rats male or female in the colony, and are any of the spayed or neutered? That does make a difference to the colony dynamics.

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:25 pm

Rats live meager and pathetic lives!!! So give them a meager and pathetic tank!!! Evil or Very Mad

But!!! on second thought, I have never seen a lion before. Could it be possible that the pet store pulled a bait and switch with me? Blink

How do you really tell? Blink

I mean if you don’t know you don’t know right? Blink

I decided to cover both bets, I got them a meager and pathetic tank, and I’m still building them a jungle Crossed Fingers

Ya’ wanna’ know what I’ve found out so far? I used to have a “pet cage” with a bad rat problem. Now I have a vacant tank and a cage full of lions Shocked

*#@% pet store!!!

I just wonder how many people I lost with the opening line and subtle bolding? Oh well I guess if you could make it this far, you will be fine for the rest of it wink

This is directed at IN-CAGE time only, NOT human interaction
This is directed at IN-CAGE time only, NOT human interaction
This is directed at IN-CAGE time only, NOT human interaction
One more time
This is directed at IN-CAGE time only, NOT human interaction

In the beginning I had a cage like every other cage I had seen at that point, eventually I had to ask myself this question, if I found out that I had only a rat’s life span left to live. Would I want to spend it the way most rats do (including those in the big cages)? I had to say no. My belief is that a well balanced rat, needs to be a rat first and a companion second. This is what got me started doing what I am doing now. This cage has made a very noticeable impact on my rat’s behavior (intellect, physical, and the touchy feely stuff that is hard to pin down) in a very short time.

On to the issues at hand…

I am going to start with the cage itself. When I first started looking for cages, I had a concept in my head of what I wanted but could not figure out how to get it out of my head and make it real, I was hoping that I could find one for sale or get some ideas. I ended up on martins site and bout choked on the price for a cage top; that and it looked boring. I figured I could do better myself. Next I stumble onto the Grotto picture, first thought was WOW, the second was, I want one. But when I look at it now… not so much. Yea, I will still build one but it will be a bigger version of what I have. To help you understand, what I see when I look at most cages, it's the same as forcing Einstein to live in a mattress outlet mall. I see this intelligent creature in a room full of beds, and the large cages just have more beds. So continuing with this path of logic I don’t take my kids to “play” at a mattress store, so why then, when I stocked my cage with hammocks did I expect anything other than boredom? I did and that was exactly what I had, a bunch of sleepin’ rats. wtf

My cage mods tend to alternate between open and closed. The pix I posted are of an open config, I do this so they can stretch out and run (and boy can they move when they want to). The closed config creates more of a maze of sorts for the whole cage. This gets them into more of a hide-and-seek mode. That and they have all developed an 18” vertical jump.

The bigger issue here though is the rats. We have already had the discussion RE: rat intellect. They are smart and learn like a sponge. Granted you are going off of only a few images so I got to give you that latitude. But it was your surface area / hiding spots / shelving comments that I felt did not hold water (in that case). You may not have noticed but the cage mod in the pix (by rat count) has 14 hiding spots, in the current config there is 5. It is because of the way I am managing the cage that I can say 6-8 rats would not be an issue, now if the cage was static they would get bored. In this case you would be 100% correct, as would the common specs.

You also made an excellent point with this comment “there are significant differences between wild rats and domesticated ones, despite all their similarities”. Yes, you can breed bad traits out and good traits in, but that is limited, and if pushed too hard will cause issues (look at the trouble with pure dog lines). Using this analogy, I have a 3 year old (Victoria), I have also had dogs that are phenomenal with kids. Would you or should I let my 3 year old play with the dog alone? Why is that? It is because for all the things that can be fixed by breeding, you cannot get the “wild side” out of them. If we can just agree on this basic concept, we should be able to at the very least agree to disagree on some points and agree on others.

Your statement “I'm not sure if your theory is based on getting them back to a natural environment” is very close to what I am aiming for with my cage. But I think you are assuming that natural means toys (natural rope etc) but I am not sure.

True, wild rats may sleep in a small area but they have the whole “wild” to go to and stretch and do other rat things (small was not the part of the “wild” I was trying to replicate). What I am trying to replicate is the dynamic nature of the wild. Since the “wild side” is the part you cannot breed out I figured why not try to stimulate it and see what happens.

(Keep in mind I don’t know what your cage looks like so this is an assumption) In the situation as you had explained, I would look to the cage. I hate to say it this way but simply put floors and hammocks - don’t force them to learn balance and timing (think running through branches). I don’t build my stuff to be “safe and clean” life is not safe and clean, it’s dirty, messy and dangerous just understand that danger is a relative term.

Rats don’t live long, I want my rats to be rats and enjoy themselves in ways that wild rats do. Yea, they are “domesticated” but deep down in the dark regions of the brain is a whole other story. Twisted Evil

So, in the immortal words of the great A. Rose wtf

Welcome to the jungle…
We got fun 'n' games…
Yogie Dance

Come on sing it with me…
*wow its getting late when I break out with the smilies* Thud

JBC

Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:05 pm

JBC......W O A H!!! Settle down!
I think the toy ideas that you have are awesome.
Toy and play surfaces and creative ropes and so forth
really have nothing to do with the cage dimensions.
Enlarging your cage dimensions will only add to the happiness of your already happy rats!

The last thing I want to do is argue...I do have 1 question for sure.
Why do you assume that if a cage is large that it is boring?
I have seen the coolest cage set-ups on this forum and other forums.
The larger the outer dimensions of the cage the more possibilities
for the inside decor. Cages can also be overcrowded.
Which is what I think will happen to your rats if you add anymore without enlarging.
It doesnt matter how cool the contents of the cage, these critters still need breathing space.

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:38 pm

OK I think that you have good ideas (in so far as varying the envirnoments, keeping them amused by changing layouts, giving them a whole lot of stimulating things etc). But I also don't accept that giving them plenty of floorspace necessarily has to be independent of what you are doing. I agree that by giving them the variety of climbing and surfaces you have, they've got lots of things to occupy them. I also agree that a cage that is solely containing an igloo or hidey box is going to be boring and - like you said - akin to "playing in a bed store". But you seem to assume that the only reason for giving them lots of floor space is to give them more places to sleep - when in reality, more floorspace also gives more space to explore, more places to add gadgets and fun stuff etc. I must admit that none of what I have read convinces me that we shouldn't give more floorspace rather than less. Shrug

And yes - rats do (as do any animals) retain enough of the wild cousins to enjoy some of the same challenges. That's not something I've ever argued against - my point was that we can (and should) give them better than we can if they were in the wild. That means - at least to some extent - comfort, space, warmth, good diet and proper vet care. That doesn't mean we can't utilize the positive aspects of their natural environment and lifestyles, nor that we can't mimic the challenges they have which help to stimulate them mentally (and nor does it mean that I am suggesting that you would neglect or abuse them).

The way I see it, rats in nature have a wide territory, lots of "floor space", many different textures, environments, substrates, tunnels, cover to hide in/on and they make themselves nest boxes in their space. That would be, ultimately, what I'd like to create for my critters (and is what I try to mimic where I can).

So yes - a cage with more amusements in might well keep rats happier and more satisfied and less grumpy and prone to fighting because they have busy minds... but I'd still stick with the general consensus that the more space, the better. You just have to use it well. I think it would be common sense to say that a cage with nothing but an igloo and a hammock would be boring for anyone. wink

Regarding heights - I am wary about them. Having dealt with rats getting sick very suddenly, older rats with mobility problems, a ratty with balance and weakness issues etc, sometimes a fun cage with a high climb/fall would simply not be viable. And as I mentioned, rats, domestic Rattus norvegicus isn't an arboreal (tree) animal. While they can, and do, climb to a certain extent, they're not like Rattus rattus - who can walk along washing lines, climb trees and prefer to nest and live up in the air. Sure it's great for a challenge for them, but they much prefer being on or under the ground.

Anyway - I think we can agree that toys and stimulation are better than just offering empty space and hiding spots or sleeping holes... but that wasn't what I was suggesting. However, I still see no real reason to recommend a smaller cage or less floorspace, even with the steps you are taking to keep them stimulated. After all - if you can give them more space and more ways to keep themselves occupied, why not do it? What do the rats do, for example, in the 18 inches above their head that they can't use or access? Nothing - it's simply empty space. You need to make sure they have space to stretch out of course, but I still believe it's best to make the best used you can of cage space and that may mean adding extra floorspace (however you wish to do that). So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Assuming for a moment that you could have 6 or 8 rats happy in that cage (which traditionally would have been deemed only large enough for half that number) would they be happier than they would be in a cage twice the size and also filled with stimulating activities? More floors, better use of space by adding levels in, that's just going to give them more places you can set up things to do - so I get you're not suggesting they should have a small area, but you are (it seems) recommending that they can be happier with less?

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:07 am

LW – Well in my mind it is official, we are both making the same points just from different sides. I would say that we are at 99.9999% in agreement. yippee

On the bigger issue:
Your comment “The way I see it, rats in nature have a wide territory, lots of "floor space", many different textures, environments, substrates, tunnels, cover to hide in/on and they make themselves nest boxes in their space. That would be, ultimately, what I'd like to create for my critters (and is what I try to mimic where I can).”

My comment “True, wild rats may sleep in a small area but they have the whole “wild” to go to and stretch and do other rat things (small was not the part of the “wild” I was trying to replicate). What I am trying to replicate is the dynamic nature of the wild. Since the “wild side” is the part you cannot breed out I figured why not try to stimulate it and see what happens.”

But, I would like to take one last run at the remaining .0001% if you don’t mind…
“so I get you're not suggesting they should have a small area” EXACTLY!!!!

“but you are (it seems) recommending that they can be happier with less?” – Close – I am wondering if it could be possible that within reason and given the proper circumstances could they be not necessarily happier but at least happy in a tank that does not meet specs? If you could agree that “in theory it could be” possible, I would then have to say from my perspective we are in 100% agreement. But this was never meant to be the primary issue I was trying to address.

This is also the reason why I posted the “This is directed at IN-CAGE time only, NOT human interaction” 4 times.

Dawn - The 6-8 rats in my cage comment was not meant to say that I am going to do this nor am I recommending that anybody do this. It is more of a feeling I have about that cage and how they occupy it. Have you ever walked into a friend house and said “WOW, I love what you did with this room; having the couch over there really opens up the place” it’s the same principle I am basing that statement on.

I wonder, would it have simplified things a bit if I would have just asked “LW - Could the commonly held cage decorating practices be improved upon?”

And finally – I was asked what I expected when I asked for comments on my cage? Two things really, One for me and one for the rats

What did I expect; a flame war where I was the villain; I actually got what I was hopping for. A lively discussion on cage decoration and how it affects the animals that call it home (in this case rats).

What did I want for the rats? For the people who keep them to look at their perspective so-cute-just-have-to-have cage toy in a different light and even if after all of this you come to the conclusion that “he doesn’t have a clue”. You still had to stop and if only for the briefest of moments the subconscious thought “Am I buying this for a cage full of meager and pathetic rats, or a cage full of little lions”…. OK OK so it’ll probably be more like “is this, the best for my rats or could we do better”. But hey – I extended you the latitude on the pictures, could ya’ leave me with my delusions – please, they are all I have left wink

Could starting things off differently have accomplished all of this, possibly?
But would it have been as much fun?

Anyway, thanks for holding off on crucifying the new guy… I promise, I will do my best next time not to start a protest

Thanks,
JBC
The little lions say thanx too
Rat Wave

Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:15 am

OK.....LOL!!!

Today I went thrift store shopping! I found 2 corner wire shelves with a ledge...I also found a stainless
steel bowl that fits snug in the shelf and I am going to give them a bowl of rocks! YAY!

I will post a picture after I get it finished....hehehhehehheeee

_________________
~~Dawn~~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:40 am

OK, I decided you're officially nuts.. wink

Yes, it probably is easier when you ask outright - but yes, I am willing to say that - sometimes - rats can be happier in smaller spaces. It very much depends on the cage and it's layout, the rats, the gender, how they get on etc. but - as I've said before (and will say again) these are recommended minimum requirements that are generally accepted - but they can't be taken on their own. Ultimately, you have to judge it based on your knowledge of your rats in particular and rats in general. So yes - they can, depending on circumstances - be happier in smaller cages. But in general I think the recommendation still holds true as a basis of estimating a suitable cage size. wink

Does that make the last fraction of a percent? wink

Let me see if I can summarise - space is great, but it's pointless if you don't make the most of it, and that recommendations are simply that. A smaller cage with more thoughtfully set out contents may be just as comfortable or stimulating as a larger one with no thought put into it.

How's that?

And hey - we do try not to crucify people with well presented discussion points. And I'm glad we didn't match your expectation - flames aren't welcome here. wink

Anyway - back to the original point. I will be attempting a maze and when I do, I'll post pictures and building instructions. I am a klutz with tools so If I can build it, anyone can. Mr. Green

_________________
Andy & The Rats

~ Darwin ~ Maisie ~ Ella ~ Zak ~

~ Finn ~ Malachi ~ Azrael ~ Newton ~ Charlie ~

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:42 am

NICE...

*Edit -
Just remember, when rats are out of the cage they should be your “lil’ rattie” but when they are in the cage let them be rats.

Protect them, Keep them safe, and possibly if you let them be rats, they will love you that much more for it.

“Ultimately, you have to judge it based on your knowledge of your rats in particular and rats in general. - LW”

Sorry, it just had to be repeated…
- Edit *

Last edited by jonnyboxcutter on Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total

Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:52 am

I also posted on Freecycle...for any leftover drain tile stuff.
My hubby says that you can only buy it in like 50 foot length.

_________________
~~Dawn~~