RatPalace.com - Pet Rat Care and Discussion

Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:49 am

I bought a large (32 x 18 x 24) clear plastic Rubbermaid-like storage bin at Bed & Bath yesterday to use as a possible temporary cage. Even after washing and rinsing and drying, and airing out overnight, there is still a faint but nasty plastic smell in it. Can't use it for the mice, it would make them ill.

Before deciding to use one of these bins, stick your head in there and smell it. If there's even the faintest whiff of plastic, it's likely it won't ever go away since the non-rigid plastics are slightly porous. This means that not only will these bins retain the plastic smell, but they will absorb odors like pee more easily. And permanently.

Please don't put your animals in one of these bins unless you've let it sit after being washed for several days and find that it doesn't smell.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Last edited by Kate on Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:12 pm

I was just speaking with people in a couple different glass companies that also work with Plexiglas and similar non-glass materials. I was thinking about having a Plexiglas tank built for the mice. Both people told me that the adhesives used to hold cut Plexiglas in a box shape are highly toxic and would likely end up killing the mice. One guy said that when they used to buy Plexilgas boxes from an outside manufacturer, he had visited their facility once and saw that the workers wore protective suits and hand and face gear while working with the Plexiglas. I asked him about Plexiglas and other plastics outgassing on their own, and he said it depends on the type of plastic. The more porous and flexible it is, the more it will outgas.

So once again, reconsider using big plastic bins as cages. The hard, molded plastic that habitats like CritterTrail and S.A.M. are made from is not porous. The softer plastic that Rubbermaid and other brands of bins are made from is porous, in varying degrees.

Update

Just talked to the main plastics manufacturer in this area. They make many different plastic items, including acrylic aquariums similar to the SeaClear brand. He said that while the industry does use toxic solvents to join the plastic at the edges, and that is a concern during both the manufacturing process and for outgassing afterwards, a week of sitting open negates that concern. I pressed him on this issue and he said that it's not the acrylic that outgasses (being a non-porous plastic) but the solvent adhesive, and that by the time the aquarium gets to retail, it is safe.

After speaking with the glass guys and this guy and two vets, I feel confident that acrylic-typoe aquariums are safe. Now, to find one I can afford.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:15 am

Hm another word of warning... polycarbonate (trade names Lexan and Macrolon) is often touted as an alternative to acrylic because it is strong, lightweight, durable, optically clear, and shatter-resistant (they use it for safety glasses). It is, in and of itself, food-safe BUT there is strong evidence that the lubricants that they use to help release it from the mold during the molding process are highly toxic. In fact, they are even issuing a broad recall of all infant bottles made of polycarbonate.

I don't recall the details, and google news search turns up nothing, but better safe than sorry, eh?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/31/BAGIOC13FM1.DTL&hw=polycarbonate&sn=005&sc=666

Sigh. Any way you toss it, polymers are scary things...

_________________
Arvay and the Squirmin' Vermin

When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, 'I used everything you gave me.'

--Erma Bombeck

Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:31 am

Nothing is safe 100%, but I can understand the concerns there, especially when they're painting that stuff onto kids' teeth!

I think a hard plastic tank would still be better than the smelly plastic bin I bought, but it's looking like I can't afford a plastic aquarium anyway, and may have to go with glass. Sad

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:11 am

Well, here is what I've found as to plastics fabrication and pre-fab stuff:

The least expensive, but the largest size is only 26 x 18 x 15:
http://www.acemart.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RUB3301
They range in price from about $40 - $60 depending on where you buy them. A restaurant supply place would be cheapest. The're only 22 gallons, though, and you have to buy a lid separately (thought most of us would buy an aquarium screen instead, I bet).

These guys actually weld rather than moleculary bond (with acetone or the like) plastic:
http://www.polyfab.biz/plastic-welding.htm
Fourth pic down on the left in the http://www.polyfab.biz/photo-gallery.htm shows a nice-looking polycarb tank, just the ticket for mice and/or breeding (click thumbnail to view a large shot). They also do custom work, and there are no prices listed, but it's worth bookmarking.

Another possibly good bookmark: http://www.fln-mar.com/custom.htm

http://www.multicraftplastics.com/ They have a "bargain basement." Mr. Green

http://www.bakerplastics.com/Default.htm "A single brochure holder is not too small and an entire museum is not too large. Our customer base includes literally anybody... Please feel free to contact us for assistance in choosing the appropriate material for your needs and designing a product that meets your requirements while keeping labor charges to a minimum."

http://www.selectplastics.com/default.htm is the guy I talked to on the phone. He gave me a quote for a tank, close to $200. If I could get a similar tank from the Polyfab guys (who weld rather than bond) or a molded Lexan bin from them, for either the same price or less, I would do that. I just can't afford that much money for a tank right now, though. The biggest polycarb Rubbermaid food-storage bins would probably be the way to go for most people, though I'm not happy about the small size. Mice need TONS of room.

Can get SeaClear brand polycarb aquariums from Petco online, but I think the cheapest one is $140 + shipping, and has a heavy base attached; it's also bonded, not welded, and weighs more with that base on.

So, this stuff is out there, and not counting the possible cost, it's as close to perfect for mice as you can get if you prefer tanks over cages, and if you look at the Polyfab site especially: welded or molded (means no solvents used to bond), any size or style your heart desires (could have doors cut in, different levels, handles, anything!). A couple of the other sites look promising as well, they just don't state onsite that I can find about welding vs bonding.

Keep in mind:

Bonding, using solvents, will be cheapest, and once the solvents have bonded the plastic and evaporated, there should be no danger to the inhabitants of the tanks if it is a very well-made tank.

Welding plastic will be cheaper than molded (one-piece) custom work, since a welding machine takes less materials and labor to run than a molding oven.

Molded bins that are in stock anywhere in large quantities will be cheaper than the simplest custom tank, most likely.

If someone were to draw up a simple plan for a custom tank and e-mail each of those sites for quotes... I keep thinking I will do this, but I'm overwhelmed with work and so it's low on my list. But if anyone gets to that before I do, please post the results here.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:21 am

By the way, stay away from one of the world's largest plastics supplier unless you don't mind having this shoved down your throat.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:05 am

	Kate wrote:
	By the way, stay away from one of the world's largest plastics supplier unless you don't mind having this shoved down your throat.

:Chucks her bins out the window:

Edit: In response to the info above...Hmm. If I only had a couple of mice, I'd probably have something specially made, but with nearly 30 (more than half of which are males who only get along in certain pairs or trios), housing (including the cost of aquarium lids) for all of them using that stuff would be insanely expensive. I'll probably either just build some wire cages or go back to tanks for now. I'm poor.

But all of this info is really useful! One day when either I'm better off, or have fewer mice, this will all really come in handy. Thanks a bunch for doing the research and sharing it. I know I'll definitely need it sooner or later.

_________________
--Brittany

"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."

Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:33 am

It probably will be insanely expensive, but I'm still going to look into it just to make sure. One of these days. Soon. Really! LOL

If nothing else I need to satisfy my curiosity.

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous

Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:56 am

	Quote:
	Kate wrote: By the way, stay away from one of the world's largest plastics supplier unless you don't mind having this shoved down your throat. Chucks her bins out the window:

I agree!

It seems like a cool idea, but VERRRY expensve!

_________________
Rosie

* * *

I miss you Tut, Goldy, and Raoul Angel rat

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:51 am

Coming in really late on this topic but I have been keeping mice in those large plastic bins for the last five years without any problems that I know of.

Is the concern that they will chew them or the fumes? Must admit, I buy them, wash it out and put the mice straight into it but have never noticed a plastic smell. And the boxes themselves do not seem to absorb odour either. I have never used the lids so there is always good ventilation.

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:42 am

I use those plastic bins aswell, for housing mice, and they are what alot of us sue as breeding tubs for rats. I have never had the slightest problem with them, and no one I know of has either. Never smelt any fumes when I first buy them, and never smelt absorded pee in them. I use the lids- just cut most of the plastic out and wire mesh to it.

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*~*~*~*~*~Hayley & her vermin friends~*~*~*~*~*

Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:04 pm

It's the fumes that are of concern to me. If I (ooh, I just noticed you're both from Australia, I wonder if you get another kind of bin there that we don't here) could find one that didn't stink, I'd use it, too. Haven't found one yet, have checked Bed & Bath stores (and the like), Home Depot, office suppy stores. They're all stanky. That one I bought when I first posted: still smelly.

Hey, as long as this thread has got people sniffing their bins just be safe before putting the mice in, it's all good. LOL

_________________
Kate & the M.O.U.S.
If you saw a man drowning and you could either save him or photograph the event ... what kind of film would you use?
~ Anonymous